Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Andarius the Red on Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:19 am

Are you sure because in the "GREY KNIGHTS" novel they used nothing but those when invading Khorian IX to kill Ghgatuloth; the prince of a thousand faces. study

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:28 am

No no no, no bloody drop pods.

If we get those we will just be flashy marines, not grey knights.

Instead!

"Teleport attack masters"
Grey knights frequently teleport their troops to their positions, catching their foes offguard and in the disarry, destroy all opposition.

Grey knights can use theese rules to deepstrike their troops into battle, (either pay with points or some other solution)
Teleport with the drop pod rules, and they may charge when they do this.
(Or maybe not charge, but deep strike the same way)

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Andarius the Red on Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:36 am

I'm just trying to concider a more practical option for us, deep striking wouldn't be replaced but made into an alternate option, the same as what the new Space Marines have been given in their codex. Technically we're allowed drop pods anyway thanks to Forge World's Imperial Armour Vol.II It states that Drop Pods may be used as a dedicated transport choice for ANY marine army, this is further cemented as our Dreadnoughts on page 218 in the volume may also select a drop pod. (It would seem unusual that our Dreadnoughts may use drop pods but our troops can't) Lastly Drop Pods have a double feature as both a transport and weapons platform giving us the option of a storm bolter or a deathwind missile launcher which is pretty sweet since this would counter-balance our failings when outmatched by a larger force than us! Granted we are meant as a surgical force but then again not every fight with chaos or daemons can be concidered precise, more often that not we're stuck on the field gunning for our lives against a 4 to 1 ratio of baddies. If we want to improve the codex we have to remeber that Grey Knights are a MARINE army and have in their possession the standard equipment that army is known for; deep strike platforms, dreadnoughts, land-raiders, thunderhawk gunships and yes drop pods

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:38 pm

But deep striking is more fluff correct.

It's the only reason i really oppose it.

You could make sweet gk drop pods, but then again, it isn't as fluffwise as teleporting them.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Andarius the Red on Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:15 pm

Hmm...we'll have to get back on this subject on a different thread, back on a similar note from a previous argument I think one of the issues needed to be fixed are the point costs for units and equipment. Primarily the Knights themselves, I would suggest all Knights to be 25 points each including justicars. Terminators would also be in this arguement, at 40 each and the brother-captain of the sqaud also at 40 points it would be more agreeable. The reason alot of them are as expensive as they are is because of their natural abilities but then if it's an army spanning benefit (aegis, true grit, shrouding, rites of exorcism) then they shouldn't have to pay very much if at all. Eitherwise Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Black Templar would be far more expensive points wise than they are now. Holding the same argument a Black Templar marine is semi-fearless, can immediately charge ANYTHING including monstrous creatures and run forward if shot at. Even without the vows, this little guy should be worth quite a bit but instead he's 16 points! Now 25 points I can understand for a Grey Knight but after that things get a bit rediculous, 50 points for a one wound power armoured sergeant (aka justicar) is just down right silly, especially when terminators are cheaper.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:22 pm

I agree, the justicar should be sheaper, no more than 35-40 pts.

He's hard, but not 50 pts hard.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Snowfire on Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:43 pm

Ok Men.

I'm the bearer of news most glorious.

I live at home now, with access to a computer, and the chance to sit down and actually get the first full draft finished.

I just have Heavy Support, the transport upgrade section, our special rules and a few other small bits to do and the first full draft is finished.

But I alread hit a snag - Fast Attack - we only have one choice so far. Start thinking and putting ideas on here. I want at least 1 other choice to the Grey Knight Teleport Attack Squad.

And just so everyone is clear, this is to make the Grey Knights viable against ALL other armies, NOT JUST DAEMONS AND CHAOS SPACE MARINES.

Cheers

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Constantine on Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:50 pm

How about Jump packs for a fast attack choice? I read about Jump pack GK's in a Black Library novel once, and it rocked!!!
Bikes might also be an option.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Snowfire on Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:01 pm

The author wasn't C S Goto was it?

Very Happy I know how much we all LOVE his work Rolling Eyes

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Constantine on Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:58 am

Snowfire wrote:The author wasn't C S Goto was it?

Very Happy I know how much we all LOVE his work Rolling Eyes

I will have to get bacl to you on that one Brother. All of my books are in boxes because of my recent move and renovations project.

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+++"There is nothing in the arcane and blasphemous arsenal of the forces of Chaos that can compare to faith. With the power of faith, our weapons become shining instruments of deliverance that can cleave the mightiest daemon in twain. With the power of faith, our minds appear as slivers of pure agony to the daemon, driving into the wretched forms of those who would dare stand before us. With the power of faith, our words become commands that cause the daemon to cower and cringe in terror. I could meet my enemies unarmed without a shred of fear in my chest, for I know that the Emperor watches over me and guides my hand. So let them come. We shall show them what the power of faith can do."+++ (Brother Captain Stern)

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:29 am

Bolter and Chainsword has some insane ideas about GK fast attack etc

Last time I checked (ages ago) they where trying to work out a lancer type unit for GKs as fast attack, both fluff correct and awesome!

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Coyote on Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:12 pm

Jump packs would be quite deadly. To me the image of GK's w/ jump packs and NFW's seems a little klunky.

Bikes or even horses would seem a little more fitting with halberds.

It's not a whole heck of a lot different than the teleport idea, but what about being able to give them a transport if you chose to upgrade them to FA.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Snowfire on Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:19 pm

So it's been a while. Computers stolen, files lost and found, and so much typing.

But here it is, the first draft of our attempt to update the Daemonhunters Codex.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=2be65e8a7af1a1aad2db6fb9a8902bda

Read it, abuse it, tell me what you like and don't like. This is just the first draft.

Then get thinking again, because there is still a long way to go.

This may be one hell of a job, but we are the only ones who can do it.

Because we are the Grey Knights. If nothing else, remember this.

The Emperor Protects

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:19 am

Hmmm, interesting.

Perhaps 10 pts per extra psybolt termie is too much, i'd say 5 pts.

And the Only one special wep per 5 knights i think is horsedung, let us have the weapons we should have.

"Options: Up to 45 models may exchange their Storm Bother and Nemesis Force Weapon for the following”

Incinerator
Psycannon"

Up to 45 models? 45 out of 10 can have heavy weapons? That sounds a bit weird (Razz:D:P) Just check it over, it's in the teleport attack squad entry.

And i don't like drop-pods, perhaps a special drop.

"Teleport attack: The grey knights drop in with the standard calculations for the grey knight forces, this means they drop very accurately. 20 pts, follow the rules for drop pod."
Or
"Planetstrike: The speed required for now is dire, there is no time for perfect calculations, the unit may deep strike normally, no extra cost"

Or something similar, gonna read some more.

Edit:Now i've read it all.

It's a nice try, i'm far too lazy to ever finishing something like this.
Good things are apart from above knight commander (should be brother captain though) as the hq choice we always wanted.

Perhaps WS 6 or maye even 7 for the grand master, he is after all the GRAND MASTER, no way in hell he is worse at fighting than a weedy space marine commander.

Shrouding and psychic powers are nice, redeemer too, i'd call the flamers "Flamestorm incinerators" though.
Perhaps not 30 pts for upgrading assult cannon to psycannon, you loose a shot and rending, and only gain ignore inv saves.

Good vs deamons, bad vs most else, i'd say change for free.

Or if it was bolters to begin with (not sure if it was) have it cost 20 pts to upgrade, +1 st and ignore inv isn't much better than 20 pts, i think.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Snowfire on Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:47 pm

The one special weapon per 5 Knights was based on the latest SM Codex. After reading you comments, I think it is better to keep it as we have it currently - "up to 2 models can swap their NFW and Storm Bolter for the following" instead of the for every 5 rule.

Knight Commander - I was in the dark on what to do here. Chaplain instead anyone? Would probably make a bit more sense. Plus quite a few of you seem to want one.

Psycannon bolts to be 5 points for Terminators? Still sits them at 50 points (NOT CHEAP) but an improvement. Consider it done.

Grand Master is now WS 6

Assault Cannons to Psycannons is now free (Psycannons are also AP 3, I need to still write up the summary for everything)

Drop-Pods - Going to have to keep them, because like Andarius the Red has said above, we are the Best of the SM, and we have their equipment. What if:

Keep the Drop-Pod, but give it upgrades - Storm Bolter can take Psycannon Bolts, or upgrade it to have Twin-Linked Psycannons replace the Storm Bolter.

Use your Teleport attack ruling - Grey Knights have access to some of the most advanced tech, allowing them to deep-strike with pin-point accuracy - 20 Points, following rules for Drop-Pod

And your Planetstrike ruling - No cost, deepstrike as normal.

3 different options for Fast Attack units.

Any other suggestions? Keep it up, this is great.

All updates have been done to the copy I have at home, I'll post a new file soon.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:31 pm

Thanks for giving my ideas a thought.

I didn't wan't to remove the knight commander, but change his name.

Brother captain is the small hq choice and terminator justicars lead their terminator brethren to war.

Psycannons ap 3? Is the assult cannon ap 3? I remember it as ap 4, but you should add a heavy psycannon to the dread.

Heavy psycannon, str 6 (7 is a bit much perhaps) ap 3 rng 18" assult 36"heavy (doesn't matter for dread, but anyways) ignore invurnerable saves.

Then we would have a better reason to give the dread the very cool weapon psycannon.

And yeah, the every 5 rule is just weird in my opinion.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Constantine on Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:50 pm

What about giving Psycannons normal stats such as heavy bolters or Assault cannons until they are fired against Daemon foes? That way the true potency of the weapon is only truely revealed when used against its intended target.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:25 pm

Psycannon works fine with str 6 ap 4 ignore inv.

But the same weapon for a trooper and a dreadnought seems a bit..... dunno... gay?

I just suggested the dreadnought psycannon to be more powerful.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:02 pm

Making GK the daemon only fighting force just seems a bit of a bad choice IMO.
Most daemon/chaos armies are pretty powerful, so bringing GK up to standard and then adding on some nice rules for fighting chaos and daemons wouldn't brake the game, as we have seen with the acceleration of codex creep if you specialise your much more likely to end up losing all the advantages of those specialisations.

This being said the psycannon is underwhelming as a heavy choice on a dread (altho I don't think they can actually upgrde to take one??)
But for a heavy weapons choice (aka with a Purg squad) the weapon should definately see some love to bring it into line with other similar weapons at this cost.
Personally I think making them count as twin linked would be pretty cool and add a bit of power, but thats just me.
+1 str would also be good but, if people prefer to keep the GK anti vehicle weakness, then 3ap would be fine.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Snowfire on Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:03 pm

Heavy Psycannons for Dreadnought AND Purgation Squad?

This would fully justify having a Purgation squad as a firebase, also give us some much needed heavier firepower.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:14 pm

Yea well I just see purg squads atm as being something that is never ever really taken, which I can understand, 55 points for a PAGK with a Psy is really really really expensive, especially when your looking at over 250 points for 5 models, 4 with Psy's.

I have to admit to being a bit biased ofc, but IT IS a squad which takes a heavy support slot and GK generally REALLY REALLY need them to be competitive, compare this with the cost of something similar in alot of other armies and we seem to be paying a premium price for a squad which is trading off alot of its passive advantages for the opportunity to be a fire base, while still paying for everything (points wise)

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:14 am

The dreadnought can buy it's right arm as a psycannon, it's a cool choice, but not worth it, i think.

Purgation squad: Troops, 25 pts per model, may all upgrade to have either psycannons at 10 pts per model or incinerators at 5 or 10 pts per model, may mix, they have no nemesisforce weapons but are bs 5. ?

Or let them keep their nfw and just have bs 4, or all their weapons are twinlinked.
(Ouch, twinlinked incinerators, maybe it's not such a good idea)

And normal pagk in troops squads upgraded with a special wep should keep their nfw, it's just annoying to remember counting their normal attacks.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:22 am

Yea thats what gets me, we aer obviously paying ALOT for those str 6 attacks, especially considering our WS, and yet when we upgrade to a psy on a PAGK its OVER the value of the model for the upgraded weapon.

Where was the enormous loss of viability for the unit taken into account in adding these items.
Incins on normal PAGK should replace the SB, and still let them have their NFW, but the Psy's I can kinda understand being 2h.... but considering they are heavy 3 for full range, aren't 24" for assualt, and totally remove at LEAST 10% of the squads good attacks at the cost of almost another whole model.....

Its just not cool, nor balanced if you ask me. The whole GK army relies upon flexibility and they totally fail in all respects with the Psy's.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by hunter on Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:44 am

has anyone seen the new forgeworld grayknight goodies ?

as i keep repeting myself , untill games workshop desides otherwise , the codex should be fixt not mess with .

that said , i am wracking my brain on how to reprsent the dreadnaught heavy psycannon.

how about str 7 ap4 (ignores invunrables) heavy 2 rng 42', 2 d6 pen vs deamon engens (demonic posession, defilers, ect)

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:07 pm

These are more suggestions of what should be done WHEN GWS do fix GK, I don't think anyone wants a half hearted measure which will just leave us being ignored for even longer.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

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