Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by apolonios on Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:01 am

Ok it took aprox 30 min ti read all your posts and i can say DAMN nice ideas but i can say 1 thing.Many ppl including me if GW or White Dwarf doesnt post this i think w have a problem.I know my ppl for SURE wont accept even a -5points at squads hehehe i know its rediculous but here in Greece they DONT and WONT accept to lose any advantage they have to other player.
Now about the post.I know i am new in Warhammer so i will tell my ideas and they r mostly with common sence not gaming experience.
The 1st thing we HAVE to do imo is that we have to judge how much OUR special rules cost.For example shrouding.I think our marines have the same cost as Space marines for example +our special rules. our PAGK costs 25 Space marines cost??20 (example) so our can be 20+special rule.I think our 1st priority is the POINTS special weapons wounds and other can come later but points is where we LACK the MOST.DOnt know if u agree but i hurt mostly at points.Played 4 games had 2 losses 1 tie 1win and me and opponent saw our difference in points.Hmmm how can i say it 2nd Example dont mind to play grand master with the stats he has he is imba but he aint with THAT cost.So if we fix his cost WITH the stats he has i think it would be easier to pass it to other players(enemies).SO its more a act of + and - abilities from other similars.PAGK=SPace marines GKT=Termies our HQ=Space marine HQ Ppl havent understand that we r same and even better than SPace marines but in real we slight better with the double cost atm so i think its not fair.

Hope i havent tired u with this post and i hope u understood what i wrote.(wrote it fast at work)

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:40 am

I played a match vs the new marines yesterday and it turned out a draw.

We played kill points, and Teddy (my orbital lance barrage) killed insane points, marines and a dreadnought!

The grand master is an incredibly strong character if the enemy doesn't have 1 of theese 3 things.

Eternal warrior.
Higher initiative.
12 or more in armour.

As long as you upgrade you GM with icon of the just powerweapons aint that bad, powerfissts are still a pain though.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Constantine on Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:53 pm

Congrats on the draw!!
Lets see a pic of Teddy!!!

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by For the Emperor on Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:54 pm

Klomster wrote:I played a match vs the new marines yesterday and it turned out a draw.

We played kill points, and Teddy (my orbital lance barrage) killed insane points, marines and a dreadnought!

The grand master is an incredibly strong character if the enemy doesn't have 1 of theese 3 things.

Eternal warrior.
Higher initiative.
12 or more in armour.

As long as you upgrade you GM with icon of the just powerweapons aint that bad, powerfissts are still a pain though.
Once our Storm shields are updated, that shouldn't be a problem. Just add a Bodyguard using the Th/ss (strength Cool combo and give the GM a storm shield.
I also played a game against the new marine... Hellfire is painful forcing me many saves, Thunderfire at my tank and scatter onto my gk hiding behind Sad disaster... He only had two marines holding out... Vindicare failed to do anything lol. Ohyeah i found it ironic a chapter master used a orbital strike on my LRC and smashed it apart... annoying too, seen as they nick our stuff... Lol my dreadnought gave swift justice to him with a missile launcher in his face.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:04 pm

I hope GW don't get a stupid attack and makes our orbital strike the same as the marine one.

I like my teddy, i only wan't it to be able to switch targets.
Otherwise high scatter is just cool!

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Andarius the Red on Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:01 pm

Hey guys, I got the new space marine codex and it appears that librarians can have any two psychic powers in the list for FREE! Maybe we should implement this idea as well, A Grand Master with two powers built into his point cost would be sweet.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by NemesisForce on Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:01 am

Free flamer and missile launcher. Now two free psychic powers? Is there anything in the SM codex they actually have to pay for? Rolling Eyes I like the idea of getting at least 1 free power for a GM. Maybe Holocaust for free as well in a Termie Elite choice. Or at least cheaper to take.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:38 pm

Yeah, 20 pts is a bit too much.

Even if the horde enemy with low toughness and save countercharge you.

In my world, new space marines are just too good, averything is free and they have rules that outrule all the other rules.

Almost no penalties, and the penalties they have, isn't anything to whine about.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Andarius the Red on Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:37 pm

The point cost isn't the real issue with me but the versatility of the unit itself, if the basic special rules were to be updated or changed entirely then maybe Grey Knights might see some competiveness. I can still see a their point costs as justifiable after such modifications so long as they are at least effective againts the latest chaos and daemon codeses. What I'd believe to be a good redesign is:

Fearless = nuff said!

Shrouding = 4+ cover save at all times.

Rites of Exorcism = all daemons assault as if in rough terrain and the knights themselves have the 'prefered enemy' rule against them.

Aegis = all knights have a 5+ save against psychic powers directed at them.

Daemonic Infestation = The chaos or Daemon army may choose any 1 daemon selection from their army list for free so long as it does not violate the maximum unit allowance in their army list (ie, 2 hq, 3 elite, 6 troop, etc.)

This is just what I think would make for a good redesign for the Grey Knights special rules and from there may help with what else could be changed for the better without going overboard.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:47 pm

Fearless is good, except with losing combat, so I think a nice new rule would be: if the justicar survives combat he adds another wound scored for combat resolution, ie the GK take 2 wounds (deaths) and the enemy take 1, but due to the justicar not being killed the GK can add +1 making combat a draw.... (I see justicars as overpriced, this would offset this a bit imo) also offset the disadvantage that GKs gain with fearless, since I feel the changes to fearless where to offset the many CHEAP units now gaining it with codex creep.

Shrouding should be more powerful.... the way cover saves work now is just stupid, so people are more likely to shoot the closest unit, and shrouding just encourages this.
For the current price shrouding should be somewhere between where it is now, and the harlequin shadowseer rule.
Ie max range to shoot PAGK/GKT being 36"

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Andarius the Red on Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:14 pm

I only considered shrouding as a cover save for the sake that yes making people roll for line of sight is handy but it still doesn't save you entirely either. As a cover save you at least get to survive a few las or plasma cannons but if we use it as the 'roll for sight' then it becomes a matter of either missing to shoot them or all dead from cannon fire. Personally I prefere a cover save against an IG demolisher cannon than pray that it won't hit me at all.

And as for the 'fearless' rule it isn't all that bad, especially if you tweak our stats just a tad. An example would be to forget the true grit rule and just give all knights a base attack of 2. This gives them their normal 2 attacks and a charge bonus for once against enemies. It may even add to the fluff of our chapter since they ARE suppose to be better at hand-to-hand then the traditional marine, what better way than to do this?! Except give everyone power weapons but then thats going to far.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Andarius the Red on Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:49 pm

Here's a thought, why not take a completely different aproach to shrouding...say a -1 modifier to their opponent's BS skill when targeting Grey Knights as opposed to rolling for vision?

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:26 pm

The shrouding is FAR superior to either of those options.

Someone(a unit) who tries to target a GK squad and fails can't shoot at anything else, and it forces them to prioritise targets that are closer due to the chances of hitting being better under that circumstance.

Also cover saves these days are a joke and if anything GK should just get a 3+ cover save automatically from their 'shrouding' which many people would scream is totally op.... but when you look at models worth like 6 points getting a 4+ save by screaning its just becoming a lame fest.
If the cover save doesn't match the 3+ its seems to me we are trading something good for something much much worse.
We don't have the mobility to take away shrouding.
Give us another 3" or 6" movement and then maybe... just maybe

(The new cover rules are the worst rule ever implemented if you ask me)

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Andarius the Red on Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:30 pm

I whole heartedly disagree, shrouding is not what it's cooked up to be at least not anymore. Tau stealth battle suits, Eldar harlequins and even Vindicare assassins can perform this ability far better than we can on a whole, at 2d6x2 I might add! Though you do have a point about the cover save issue.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Coyote on Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:40 pm

I would say that the shrouding is neither superior or inferior but fair as it applies to all GK infantry models not just an elite group. It may not win the game for you, but one turn (maybe more depending on board size and the enemy your fighting) of your enemy not being able to shoot at you isn't too shabby.

besides that consider the other units that have a shrouding type ability. None of them are anywhere close to str 6, most of them are toughness 3, and their saves aren't as good.

I think if you tinker w/ shrouding something else is going to have to get worse or it will be a points increase

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:47 am

I think the issue with shrouding is that to strengthen it, due to the way it works you are basically removing a single die which works out as a very large increase in its effect.

Which would be too powerful.
Also I am reasonably sure harlies are 2d6x3 or 3d6x2 although I could certainly be wrong, but this is ALOT better than ours.
They don't have the str 6 attacks but one can argue that rending is just as good (auto wounds, ap 1 from memory) but their saves are just 5+ invuln and they have almost no shooting capabilities.

I think the rule is a bit underpowered, but I wouldn't want to see it removed unless its replaced by something really really nice that is equally useable, and not just a 1 off per battle kind of thing.

What would be nice is with the current rules for shrouding you roll an extra dice and can chose the lowest 3 dice.
And then maybe give terminators the option of rolling two extra dice and chosing the lowest 3.

This being said its doubtful it would happen Razz

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Coyote on Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:40 am

Role 4d6 and pick the lowest 3......I like it Zealadin

Harlequinns are 2d6x2

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:41 am

Hmm true that, finally found my eldar codex lol Razz

Yes probably the finest moment my harlies ever had was a guy failing to shoot them at 6" (rolled two 1's, which I should have remembered)
His squad got slaughtered, and then he flamed them with another squad next turn /sigh

Their worst moment was making 30 attacks on ORCs and killing 2.
2..........
2...............2....

Sigh

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Andarius the Red on Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:11 am

Hey guys I found this little bit at www.dicelikethunder.com
Seems they have a pdf called fluid 40k that has tweeks and house rules re-iterating of some of the details on equipment and special abilities for most of the armies in 40k.(especially Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle) Check it out, you'll find Grey Knights on page 10.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:54 am

Hmmm sounds interesting, will have to take a look!
With the state of the DH and SoB armies not many people would begrudge us some house rules lol Razz

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:01 pm

That wasn't very good rules at all!

Even i can do better, and then i don't mean we didn't get boosted enough, it was just stupid.

I think chaos models should be all chaos space marines and all deamons, both are obviously chaos.
Grey knights isn't just effective against deamons, their faith gives them the upper hand against chaos too.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by For the Emperor on Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:40 pm

Klomster wrote:That wasn't very good rules at all!

Even i can do better, and then i don't mean we didn't get boosted enough, it was just stupid.

I think chaos models should be all chaos space marines and all deamons, both are obviously chaos.
Grey knights isn't just effective against deamons, their faith gives them the upper hand against chaos too.
Thats true, Pyschic screams of hatred and icons that would make a Imperial fall to the ground, really would just bounce off a GK just as a Las-fire would.

I don't think Shrouding is effective enough.

Maybe it should work the opposite way around.
Each time an enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights, the player controlling the GK unit rolls 2d6x3 (6 to 36)
Measure from the Grey Knight unit to the enemy unit, if a single enemy model is in range the GK unit benefits from Feel No pain and a 4+ cover save.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:50 pm

FEEL NO PAIN AND 4+ COVER SAVE!!!

That's a bit too good.

2D6x3 is good range, not too powerful and not to bad.

And another note on your rule.

"If a single enemy model is in range" look, you have 1 imperial guard in cc with my grey knights, now i get 4+ cover and feel no pain from your earthshaker!!
WOOO!!!

I say keep shrouding as it is but change the range, it's just a nice bonus after all!

Hmmmm, banishment, i know!

Do a psychic test, 1 greater or 1D6 or 2D6 minor deamons loose their invurnerable save this turn and until the gk's next turn.

Or.

Target a deamon model within 12"/18", take the psychic test with a penalty equal to the targets wounds.
If the caster succedes, the target takes D6 wounds, if the caster fails, the caster suffers perils of the warp.

Something in those lines perhaps. Just throwing out ideas.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Andarius the Red on Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:44 pm

You know getting right down to it it's really about point cost, Grey Knights are 25 points each but a justicar is 50. He's got the exact same equipment as they do but now his NFW is treated as a power weapon, how is this worth another 25 points? In addition to that a justicar costs more than a Grey Knight Terminator who is by definition just another Justicar given different armour. I would say make the Justicar 25 points and the Grey Knight Terminators and Brother-Captains 40 points. Fix the Brother-Captain HQ to be a 100-ish points and 2 wounds, fix the banishment psychic power, and allow everyone to have drop pods and we're done! 5th addition here we come.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by For the Emperor on Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:08 am

Andarius the Red wrote:You know getting right down to it it's really about point cost, Grey Knights are 25 points each but a justicar is 50. He's got the exact same equipment as they do but now his NFW is treated as a power weapon, how is this worth another 25 points? In addition to that a justicar costs more than a Grey Knight Terminator who is by definition just another Justicar given different armour. I would say make the Justicar 25 points and the Grey Knight Terminators and Brother-Captains 40 points. Fix the Brother-Captain HQ to be a 100-ish points and 2 wounds, fix the banishment psychic power, and allow everyone to have drop pods and we're done! 5th addition here we come.
I dont think drop pods is fitting GK fluff, they are supposed to leave no presence of themselves. all GK Teleport is much better with some form of teleport beacon.
Shrouding does suck, GK's are supposed to advance not run away. Shrouding needs turning upside down.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

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