Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

honestly i dont think we should muck around too much with the codex , we still have one darned good advantage over newer codex , our hq can still use retinues , we start changing too much , other players will demand that we nerf our list acordingly

on my end we are working on how to fix the codex to the point that it's as good as it was in the 3rd/4th edition , we'll fix the rules that later update broke .

so far whats on the table , all gk have 5+ save vs psychic/deamon attacks when agis doesn't apply , gray knights have better access to wargear at reduce cost, assasins use the old IC rules, we are still batting ideas for a replacement for rights of exorsism and banishment .

if you have any sujestions that would be easy to implement pleast shair them .

now for practical sujestions , you ppl know way more about the knights than i do , why not bring some of the characters from the novels in to the game .
the ork and new SM codexes are a good example , some IC are upgrades to an existing squad instead of an hq choice.

update , when the NEW SM codex comes out , the inquisition MAY have the best psychic hoods , the librerians are getting NERFT a little bit so this little relic of the past may make it worth it .

Yep, hence why I am keeping ours in the codex.

It makes more sense to keep something that works.

Wow, quite a bit of work done today.

Third version now with elites choices added

http://www.mediafire.com/file/l3mctaczboi/Daemonhunters Codex Rewrite.doc

Snowfire wrote:Wow, quite a bit of work done today.

Third version now with elites choices added

http://www.mediafire.com/file/l3mctaczboi/Daemonhunters Codex Rewrite.doc

so far an impressive body of work , 80% of that would probebly pass the cheez test at the club,

how are you planning on adressing some of broken bits of the codex ?

High praise indeed. I was trying to limit the cheezyness as much as possible as well.

Define broken bits? Are we talking now defunct pieces of wargear/Grey Knight specific rules that no longer exist etc?

I'm not too sure how I will fix these at this time. I think I will just see what I come up with when I get to them.

One thing that I know I will be changing is the Psycannon - Giving Inquisitors the ability to take a Psycannon Gun Servitor (Thank You Dark Bjoern), Adding a Pasycannon to the list of weapons for the Dreadnought, and possibly making it Strength 5, AP 3.

Look at the size of a psycannon barrel, it is huge. My reasoning is that something that is large enough to come out of that is going to do some damage when it hits. Thus AP 3. But because of it's size, it is going to be moving slightly slower, hence the drop in Strength. And all for 25 Points each.

Any questons on this?

broken as in a proper aplication of agis and rights of exorsisem
banishment dosent work anymore .
DH force weapons cant chop a deamon in half anymore
assasins get the snot shot out of them

as mentiond in my previous rant the psichic hood is going to be a hot peace of wargear because the SM libs are getting nerft.
Our club has fixes for most of the DH/GK woes with some epseptions.

recomendation , Heavy psycannon for GK dreadnaught (forgeworld)

I have a couple of suggestions:

1) Shrouding, which although is not broken by 5th edition so does not need fixing may if altered slightly go to help restore balance. All dreads received shrouding as it is still a grey knight in there and a land raider, rhino or any other transport carrying a grey knight also gets shrouding.

2) As previously stated need at least one other HQ choice.

3) Fast attack teleport GK can count as Troop choice.

4) Orbital Strike at the beginning of the shooting phase on a role of 5 or 6 the orbital strike target may be moved.

5) With SM costing 16 pts maybe reduce our PAGK to 20 pts.

6) Grand Master and maybe new intermediate HQ does D3 wounds

That is all so far will think some more but let me know what you think.

We pay extra for our gray knights because they are supose to have special powers.

now here's the ascid test , bring all thoes sujestions to the other player , specialy the chaos ones to see what they thing , if thet think it a good idear thas going to make for a fun game then it's a good idear.

if they call you a cheezy git then then it's sing nobody will play agance that list.

go to the players and discuse whats fluff appropriate and fair compared to the other codex.

Spartan wrote:I have a couple of suggestions:

1) Shrouding, which although is not broken by 5th edition so does not need fixing may if altered slightly go to help restore balance. All dreads received shrouding as it is still a grey knight in there and a land raider, rhino or any other transport carrying a grey knight also gets shrouding.

2) As previously stated need at least one other HQ choice.

3) Fast attack teleport GK can count as Troop choice.

4) Orbital Strike at the beginning of the shooting phase on a role of 5 or 6 the orbital strike target may be moved.

5) With SM costing 16 pts maybe reduce our PAGK to 20 pts.

6) Grand Master and maybe new intermediate HQ does D3 wounds

That is all so far will think some more but let me know what you think.

1) This makes sense. I was thinking of doing something like this, as the draft mentions Land Raiders for Inquisitors and Grey Knight Land Raiders for the Grey Knight Heroes.

2) I have changed the Brother-Captain HQ choice to a Knight Commander, with a slight upgrade to his stats and points. It's in the draft. Most other Armies only have 2 HQ choices so I am going with 2.

3) I am not going to do this. The rules clearly state that troops, and only troops can hold objectives. I am, however, going to include a drop-pod as a transport choice for PAGK troops, along with a rhino. Fast Attack will need some new unit types created, so start thinking people.

4) Do people actually use this thing? Hmmm, that does make more sense to the inaccuracy rule.

5) Great minds think alike. This is exactly what I was planning on doing, with the Justicar dropping to 30 Points.

6) Just a little over-powered don't you think? What if we change the rules for Nemesis Force Weapons? They have been specifically designed for killing Daemons, purified and blessed so they become deadly to Daemons and are allowed to ignore the Eternal Warrior rule for Daemons Only?

what am i chop liver ?
we have a WORKING alternative for force and nemesis force weapons , deamonhunters do D3 extra wounds indtead of instent death on deamons.
it an apseptable compermise .

what i WOULD see as a plosible way to get a little extra power is to add new special caracters (from the novles or other sourses) as upgrades to existing units , this is allready implemented in some of the newer codexes .

i know i sound like am bitching all the time and holding you back but i am trying to look at this from the opposition's point of vue , is this a fix for an out of date codex or is this making an allready strong army in to somthing completly unfair.
remember unofficial material has to be aproved by bouth sides.

hunter wrote:We pay extra for our gray knights because they are supose to have special powers.

I know but do you not think 4pts covers what a PAGK gets over a normal SM would it cost 9pts to upgrade a normal SM to a PAGK, I have not seen the new codex so don't know but I think that is the way to work it out.

hunter wrote:now here's the ascid test , bring all thoes sujestions to the other player , specialy the chaos ones to see what they thing , if thet think it a good idear thas going to make for a fun game then it's a good idear.

I totally agree and will present them to my brother who I play against alot.

snowfire wrote: 3) I am not going to do this. The rules clearly state that troops, and only troops can hold objectives. I am, however, going to include a drop-pod as a transport choice for PAGK troops, along with a rhino. Fast Attack will need some new unit types created, so start thinking people.

True but with bikes having the option to be able to be taken as troops we need a fast troop choice, maybe limit it to one Teleport PAGK maybe taken as a troop.[quote="snowfire"]1) This makes sense. I was thinking of doing something like this, as the draft mentions Land Raiders for Inquisitors and Grey Knight Land Raiders for the Grey Knight Heroes.

snowfire wrote:
4) Do people actually use this thing? Hmmm, that does make more sense to the inaccuracy rule.

Well I was playing a game and my opo had 2 vindicators I thought how handy an ordanence weapon is and ready up on it it would be great if we could target with it but unless we can do that I think a little pointless and you comment confirms that. With this change I think you would see it more.

snowfire wrote:
6) Just a little over-powered don't you think? What if we change the rules for Nemesis Force Weapons? They have been specifically designed for killing Daemons, purified and blessed so they become deadly to Daemons and are allowed to ignore the Eternal Warrior rule for Daemons Only?

hunter wrote:we have a WORKING alternative for force and nemesis force weapons , deamonhunters do D3 extra wounds indtead of instent death on deamons.

Hunters solution I think is perfect.

hunter wrote:what i WOULD see as a plosible way to get a little extra power is to add new special caracters (from the novles or other sourses) as upgrades to existing units , this is allready implemented in some of the newer codexes

i know i sound like am bitching all the time and holding you back but i am trying to look at this from the opposition's point of vue , is this a fix for an out of date codex or is this making an allready strong army in to somthing completly unfair.
remember unofficial material has to be aproved by bouth sides.

What I dont like about that is you end up with the same as everyone else that was why I loved the customisable Hero, which I post a link to on the first page, you could create your own guy also I dont think a special character will bring us on par with other armies, in truth I dont think it needs too much change just a little tweek.

I think it is a difference of opinion your not bitchin and I think you are in the best position to bounce ideas off people as your club sounds sorted, maybe you could ask them about some of my ideas and others peoples ideas and let us know how they react.

Sparten , i totaly suport you conserning Custemiseble heroes , heck thas why i like about fantesy.

once codex space marines is out you will see what i am talking about.

if i rememver correctly gray knights have Chaplens but not many.

as HQ
how about GK chaplen , gives preferd enemy and furious charge to the unit of GK he joins , limited to 0-1
cannot have psichic powers and in all things good and fair cannot have a retenue like all new IC .

if i remember the hero of the GK novles was cald Justicar Alric.
as an upgrade to one Justicar
How about a Justicar special caracter who is so devout that once per game he can boost his fellow gray knights nemesis weapons to full power weapons. possebly need to roll a ledership test to work.

what i would sujest to offset the cost of the knights is the reduction of the cost of wargear and improve access to them , i borrowd that from space wolves.

With out modefying the codex too much we can hav ourselves some extra power in a way that wont upset the opposition.

Brother Hunter,

I like your ideas for the most part, however;

cannot have psichic powers

All of the Grey Knights have Psychic powers, it is part of their defence against Daemons, I feel that if ever a character were deserving of psychic powers, it would be a GK Chaplain.

I do like the prefered enemy idea, hmmmm.... what enemy would he choose?
And I think not allowing a retinue in alignment with the IC rules is a great idea.

I really like the idea of incorporating Aleric into the game too. I think allowing a squad led by Alaric to infiltrate would represent his vast knowledge and experience faceing Daemons nicely.

Not sure if anyone has suggested this before but GK's should have Preferred Enemy as standard against all Daemons. Alaric would be a cool named Hero to have and I agree Infiltrate would be a nice fit for the initiative and free-thinking he was known for. After all, infiltrating was what he mostly did in the first two GK novels.

to Constantine " i agree with you fluff wise that all gray knights should have psychic powers but game wise would make such a caracter over powerd.

as for preferd enemy , thas what they are replacing litinari of hate in the new codex space marinne with ... as in prefernd enemy EVRYBODY

as gray knights are allready fearles , furios charge would be an appropriate replacement and give us much needed veteran skills.

i would easely imagin a gray knight chaplen's awsom faith give his squad all sorts of advantage agance the ruinos powers but as mention bnefor we have to balance what is Fluffy with what is fair.
note a GK chappy would improve our strengh agance all commers not just agance deamons.

To NemesisForce
very nice , Alaric as an upgrade to any justicar would improve our game greatly , infeltrate is briliant and Fluff apropriate.
i am counting on you to come up with such things.
Can you wright down what would be Alaric"s stats and gear ?
"would give me an idear on how to modle him"

oh and i think i have it for right of exorsisem
when calculating who won an assault agance deamons , deamons count as having taken an unsaved wound , an other for cortez , an other for being at 6" of an inquisitor with two hieropants.
yes that means deamons take extra wounds for losing an attack.

Ok Alaric's most notable traits are imagination and creativity so Initiative should be 5 maybe Leadership 10 and wounds 2.

Now without spoiling the books we may want a rule that Alaric can only be fielded when Inquisitor Nyxos is the HQ. As we know nothing about Inquisitor Nyxos in reality an inquisitor can be made by the player. This is just an idea and would annoy me loads as I dont want to use an Inquisitor but would work better with fluff and give a downside to the upside of Alaric.

Now I do not know how many heros we can have from what I hear the Ultra Marines have loads more than the others so here is another one from the books:

Brother-Captain Tancred (Terminator Justicar in the books)

Tancred is revered as the best swordsman Justicar Alaric has ever seen, second only to Brother-Captain Stern himself.

Grey Knight Novel Spoiler Below

Spoiler:

As such I feel we should have him in carrying the said weapon in the spoiler. This means when fighting a Daemon Prince he can kill them instantly ignoring any eternal warrior rules. Also he should have an extra wound. Also his mastering of swords means he should get initiative 5 and attacks 4.

Also just so you know the Chaplin in the books is called Chaplain Durendin I think

Edit
Now I was just posting to Sirsean's 1500 pts post and suddenly realised a Justicar is worth 50 pts and a Terminator only 46 pts to me that seems stupid anyone else think that?

Ok have been discussing the rules with my Bro and he is happy with my shrouding change that dreads get it and vehicles with grey knights in and the D3 extra wounds.

Now with the orbital strike we changed it slightly, so to change location it takes a turn to readjust the sattallite reprogramme targeting computers.

We decided the fast attack PAGK count as troops was a no go but he did say he would have no problem with the Lysanders teleport assault rules being used for our deep strike squads so that maybe a thought.

Which led to a question could you deep strike a dreadnought via teleport not drop pod?

Edit
Was looking at our guys stats to cost ratio and I think maybe reduce the Brother captain to 50 pts (maybe 55 pts) as the only advantage he gets over normal Terms is an extra attack. Next Justicars one extra attacke power weapon I think that would be covered by 10pts so they should come down to 35 pts (maybe 40 pts).

To me this is not a huge change and I think people would be ok with it but it will give us a little more play when trying to work out our armies.

P.S. sorry for the 2 posts in a row

Man, it really makes less sense now when you do the Justicar/Terminator comparison. Based on the price of the average GK though I really don't think the Justicar is too overpriced. Maybe by 5 points. Basically he is paying for a power weapon and a 'veteran' upgrade. Isn't that usually around 10 points per pop? We'll have to see the new SM codex for the latest going rate.

thanks spartan for the valuble info
to not go overpowerd i recomend sticking with +1 new HQ choice , +1 special caracter as hq and no more than 2 special caracter as upgrades.

as much as i would love to see a cheeper justicar if we start muckung around with the point cost then evrybodw who has a gripe with ther own codexes will DEMAND to do the same.
am going to keep pushing for cheeper wargear for Knighs

this is my persenal agenda for the codex.
first Fix what previous upgrades BROKE
second , bring in the Fluff appropriate for the Gray knights and the ordo malus.
Third improve the game play with the knights

i know i keep repeting myself but in the name of fair gamplay we cant put in evrything we want in the dex.
atm our only justification for doing so is that our codex was broken with the new cms/demon codexes , 2 generations out of date and GW seems to have no interest in updating us seriously at this time.

ofcours if we choose to fully overhaul our codex instead of ducttaping it we are going to have to use a similar structur to all new codexes in order to be acsepted , this means limited options , fixt squad numbers , no more retenues and have our wargear match that of the sm codex. do realy want to give up our last good advantage?

Hey All

Not enough time to read all of the new posts, just want to let you know that there has been a substantial pause at my end. I can't do any updates or anything, because my laptop was stolen the other day. Keep up the good work, and hopefully I will be back online and able to work with your ideas and see what can be done.

Daemons can only slow down our progress, they will never stop it.

Snowfire

The deamonetters stole your laptop?

FOUL XENO SCUM......

Um... i mean deamon.

Hope you get to tazer the one who did it!

NEWS FLASH
the codex is now fixed and ready for play testing

Universal rules
demonic infestation chaos player may re-roll his demon summoning

Rights of exorcism , in an assault against demons the presence of grey knights confers one unsaved wound for determining combat resolution, the same with Cortez and the presence of an inquisitor with 2 priests .

example 10 GK assault 10 deamon , both inflict 2 unsaved wound making this a draw but the presence of the knights adds +1 meaning deamons LOSE the fight and take one extra wound as per no retreat rule.

Deamonhunter force/nemesis force weapons inflict 1d3 wounds instead of instant death on deamons.

Aegis confers an 5+ invulnerable against psychic/demon ranged attack when normal aegis rules don't apply

assassins use the old IC rule

banishment as normal but instead demonic instability inflict 1d6 wounds on target

special notes
gift of chaos , a grey knight cannot be turned in to a spawn
for CMS vs aegis applies , for demon vs knight us ther 5+ aegis save, if failed grey knight gets "microwaved" instant death

sorry about the microwaved bit folks i had a mental image of the pour knight frying like a sausage inside his power armor from the intense psychic attack

now this needs to be play tested and changes will be applied as issues come up.

now from wear i stand all major issues are resolved to my satisfaction , not as powerful of fluff appropriate as we would like but this is MORE than we are allowed more , i call that fair compromise.

pardon for my horrible spelling

i am still willing to help you work out your own revisions , share my play testing experiences and act as the voice of moderation.

Something that would help a lot is if we can get battle reports of the playtests.

The rules you wrote looks decent.

But you do spell horribly, try too check it over, i could spell check it if it wasn't for the fact i don't understand what it should say!

Hi All

No I am not back on board yet, just borrowing a flatmates computer to do some email catchup.

Spelling has been fixed on the above post, so feel free to give the rules a spin, like Hunter said, and put your thoughts on here.