Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

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Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by w0lfgang7 on Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:35 am

Can a psychic mastery level 0 or 1 unit/character both cast hammerhand AND activate its Nemesis Force Weapons?

Here's my confusion. Brotherhood of Psykers lets the unit cast one power per turn (p21 codex). Similarly, level 1 psykers only get 1 warp charge per turn (psyker mastery levels p21 codex, generating warp charge p66 in 6E rulebook).

So Terminators, Strike Squad, Grand Master all cast Hammerhand in the fight sub-phase. No problem. The enemy succumbs to their onslaught and has unsaved wounds. They all would LOVE to activate their Force Weapons, but that requires 1 warp charge (p37). Since the GM spent his warp charge casting hammerhand and the brotherhood of psykers units already used their "one ability" this turn, are they SOL and unable to activate their force weapons? I always thought they could do both, but looking at all of the pieces parts, it sounds like that may not be the case.

If they can't do both, then wouldn't this make the value of brotherhood banners go up since it automatically turns on the force weapons?

Thanks for the clarification brothers!

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Omenos on Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:43 am

They can't do both for the reasons you have outlined even with a banner unfortunately. The brotherhood banner only means that you don't need to do a psychic test as the banner makes it automatically pass for that unit, you still need a warp charge to be able to activate the weapon in the first place. I hope this helps Smile

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by w0lfgang7 on Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:48 pm

It helps a lot. Thanks!

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Aubec le noir on Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:54 am

even non activated the NFW still are considered power weapons
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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by jeffersonian000 on Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:08 pm

If the opposing unit is composed of all single-wound models, use Hammerhad. If the opposing unit has multi-wound models, activating your NFW is the better choice.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by volvoe on Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:03 am

Now if the GM is with the unit of terminators and casts hammerhand, the entire squad benefits from the ability. That leaves the squad with the ability to activate their force weapons and the GM will also benefit from this. That is because the GM is an IC and is considered to be part of the squad. The same works for characters like Mordrak, Justicar Thawn, etc (anyone with pskyer masteries).

However if you have two seperate units they cannot benefit from the other's psychic abilities. Unless of course its a blessing from either Cotez or a Libraian. But basically you only have psykery level 1 you can only use one ability per turn (hammer hand or activating force weapons).

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Embolden40k on Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:18 am

What would happen the case of a Inquisitor with Halberd (I6), who for some reason keeps hammerhand and casts it, using his Warp Charge, this Inquisitor joined a squad of Strikes (all armed with Swords I4), who don't cast hammerhand, the Inquisitor causes a wound at I6 and doesn't have the Warp Charge left to activate the NFW, does this mean the whole squad doesn't benefit as per page 54 of the GK Codex as you have to activate after the first wound? Which you couldn't do...

I know it's a rare one, but I had a similar thing happen in a game involving Wraiths and a squad armed with Hammers and a Inq who had already used his 1 power that turn..

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by bigbri on Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:19 am

Embolden40k wrote:What would happen the case of a Inquisitor with Halberd (I6), who for some reason keeps hammerhand and casts it, using his Warp Charge, this Inquisitor joined a squad of Strikes (all armed with Swords I4), who don't cast hammerhand, the Inquisitor causes a wound at I6 and doesn't have the Warp Charge left to activate the NFW, does this mean the whole squad doesn't benefit as per page 54 of the GK Codex as you have to activate after the first wound? Which you couldn't do...

I know it's a rare one, but I had a similar thing happen in a game involving Wraiths and a squad armed with Hammers and a Inq who had already used his 1 power that turn..

That entry is describing how force weapons work with units using the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. The Inq is an IC and has nothing to do with them(ICs activate their own force weapon seperately). You have to activate the weapons after the first person with the BoP rule causes a wound eg your justicar has a halberd and everyone else has a sword, Justicar casues a wound so you activate then


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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by volvoe on Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:10 am

bigbri is correct. Your IC's still need to activate their force weapons separately. However your inquisitor will give your entire squad hammerhand except he will now be unable to activate his force weapon. You could save yourself a bit of trouble by giving your Inquisitor a NDH, thunderhammer, or powerfist. If you can't kill them via force you might as well instant kill them!

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Embolden40k on Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:05 pm

Cheers, that clears things up nicely! Smile

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by SmokinBrown on Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:01 pm

Does a brotherhood banner still work for independant characters? Even though it says they have to roll separately to activate their force weapons as per the force rule, they are still a part of the unit and so still automatically pass as per the banner rule? Albeit still at the expense of one of their own warp charges.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by volvoe on Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:11 pm

I may be wrong, but I'll say it will. Your IC is benefiting from the extra attack so I don't see why he wouldn't benefit from the banner's other ability. He is still considered part of the unit. He isn't part of the brotherhood of psykers, but he's still part of the unit in terms of game purposes. I mean it's only fair, you're spending points for a banner so it might as well be the case.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by SmokinBrown on Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:12 am

I hope this is the case, although passing the psychic test with draigo on 3d6 due to shadows in the warp and watching my opponent look on in horror as the swarm lord dies without ever getting to hit anyone is priceless. Maybe it won't be as dramatic if he automatically passes?

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Vecuu on Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:45 am

So I have another Hammerhand question:

I know in 5th it was explicitly stated somewhere that you can stack multiple instances of Hammerhand (ie: have your GKSS use it, and then each IC that joins also use it). Is this still the case in 6th edition? I can't find anything that supports it.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by volvoe on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:10 am

I think yes. There's nothing that disapproves of it either Razz. I remember that you could stack hammer hand as well. The way psychic powers are worded in 6th is that you have warp charges for each psychic mastery level. And so you could think of it as a pool of mana (MTG terms) and you could cast as many spells as your mana could afford. That being said you can attempt as many psychic powers as your models can afford to, and so you can choose which powers to cast (even if its the same power). However, reading Might of Titan it worries me because this is the only power in the codex that says it is cumulative with Hammerhand. /shrug There's no where that said it stacks however there is no where that says it doesn't stack. Reading other forums I believe that they do stack. Hope this helps. :]

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by volvoe on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:14 am

Oh wait. Looking deeper into it..
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/503048.page
Hammerhand does not stack. on pg 68 of BRB you could see that blessings of different names can only stack.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Vecuu on Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:17 pm

Where does it classify Hammerhand as a blessing?

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by volvoe on Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:25 pm

Okay that was before I read the entire 17 pages of that thread. And believe me it was a headache to read. Before in 5th in the FAQ it said that we could stack hammerhand but they removed it. And as RAW states psychic powers of different names stack. Hammerhand is not a blessing, ignore my ignorant comments from before. I don't believe we are able to stack hammerhand because there are no permissive RAW saying so. Feel free to do research and get back to me, as much as I would like that we are able to stack HH I don't think we could.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by SmokinBrown on Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:46 pm

I don't have the book on me at the moment, but stating that powers of different names DO stack, does not mean that powers of the same name DO NOT stack. I'm pretty sure the wording of the rule does imply that powers of the same name don't stack but could someone check on the exact wording of the rule and confirm/deny this?

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Omenos on Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:59 pm

Pg 69 of the pocket size rule book (Psyker chapter, Resolve Pyschic Power):

"Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative"

Hammerhand is the same psychic power regardless of caster therefore it cant stack with itself as it isn't different (otherwise it would not have been necessary to state different and the fact there hasnt been and FAQ stating otherwise, i do not think they can stack)

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by SmokinBrown on Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:41 pm

It's a very strange way to word the rule. Ideally it should read "unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple psychic powers of the same name do not stack" if this is the RAI. The way it is currently worded, if intended to deny multiple stacking of the same power such as hammerhand, makes the phrase kind of obsolete, as common sense lends to the conclusion that different powers all have an affect.

If the phrase is intended to read as "different psychic powers" meaning different instances of the same power (such as from the unit as well as an independent character), and therefore granting stacking, then the rule makes perfect sense.

I'm not really trying to argue either way, I think RAI is that hammerhand would not stack, but rules as written (RAW) could be taken either way. The removal from the FAQ stating that it can stack strongly suggests that it no longer can. It's just classic games workshop shoddy rule writing.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Omenos on Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:53 pm

Indeed, hence there is the debate all over the web about this. That and the fact that in 5th it was allegedly FAQed saying that you could (only really been playing since september so i have only played in 6th ed.).

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by SmokinBrown on Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:17 pm

I've read the argument and come to the conclusion that HH can stack for the following reasons/logic.
2 psychers can cast the same power
Those 2 psychers can target the same unit (even their own, such as with hammerhand).
Resolving the first, S is increased by 1
Resolving the second, S is increased by one again
Saying that "different powers are cumulative" is not restrictive of the above logic
For example if one psycher casts smite at a unit, then another psycher casts smite, it does not mean that the second instance will not resolve because of the first.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Omenos on Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:37 pm

But it is as that is running on the assumption that hammerhand being cast by A is not the same as hammerhand being cast by B...

Using your example:
Psyker A casts hammerhand on the unit
Psyker B casts hammerhand on the same unit
Now you start resolving the psychic abilities...
The first hammerhand resolves with no problem
The second will not as the unit is already affected by hammerhand as different powers are cumulative. As hammerhand is hammerhand, it is not a different power therefore it can not stack.

It isnt a question of whether the two sources can cast the power, it's whether the power can be resolved on the target which according to the rule as quoted above can not be the case...

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by SmokinBrown on Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:51 pm

But the rule does not say that it cannot stack.
It says that A plus B (being different powers) is ok.
This does not mean that A plus A is not legal, even though each instance of A is legal in its own right.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

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