Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Omenos on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:03 pm

But why even make the statement about different powers in the first place if it was intended for the same power to be applied on the same target multiple times? :S

I'd rather not have a 17 page discussion going around in circles about this, i think it probably is best just to agree to disagree and leave it to a TO or coin toss or whatever in a game if someone disagrees :p

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by SmokinBrown on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:08 pm

Well this is my main grievance lol, I can't see any point for that rule with it being written the way it is. The only way I can see it applying is in the situation of some power with wording such as "the targets leadership value is reduced by 3. This is not cumulative with other castings of this power". Here, the rule would apply, but there is still no need for it because there is enough rule within the text of the power itself to cast it correctly.

My point is they need to change the wording of the rule to "unless otherwise stated, multiple castings of the same power are not cumulative with each other" if this is their intention. Job done Smile

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by jeffersonian000 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:02 pm

Hammerhand is not cumulative with itself. In point of fact, unless otherwise stated, no benefits from the same ability are cumulative with themselves per the BRB pg. 32. Hammerhand and Might of Titan stack, because we have specific permission for those two powers to stack; however, we do not have specific permission for Hammerhand to stack with itself.

Back in 5th, it did. In 6th, it does not.

SJ

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Vecuu on Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:14 pm

It looks like I opened the proverbial can of worms. Crying or Very sad

I came to the conclusion that Hammerhand doesn't stack with itself due to the same provided evidence that you have all brought forth. Even if there is a case for either side, unless otherwise FAQ'd, I would be inclined to go by the old standard of, "Do whatever puts me at a greater disadvantage." After all, it's better to cheat yourself and have future options opened up, than to cheat your friends and be found out down the line as a WAAC player.

I do, however, agree that what matters the most is likely going to be your opponent's interpretation, and, beyond that, your local TO's call.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by SmokinBrown on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:47 pm

I completely agree. Just the wording Irks me lol.
I was unaware of the ruling that Jeffersonian pointed out on page 32, which does put an end to this debate lol.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by volvoe on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:27 pm

It's okay, at least we're not as toxic as other forums AND came to a real conclusion. Razz

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Aubec le noir on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:29 am

Which is ?
I'm afraid, i'm too lazy to get though all those very interesting explanations !! Embarassed Razz
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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by SmokinBrown on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:42 am

That hammerhand does not stack with itself anymore.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Aubec le noir on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:58 am

thanks bro ... it's a pity btw ! Razz
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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by SmokinBrown on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:10 am

Yeah, I'm gonna miss the good old days of having a S8 paladin squad =/ (with draigo and a librarian) oh well Smile

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Vecuu on Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:12 am

You can still get them up to S6 (Hammerhand+Might of Titan) and lower the enemy's toughness with Rad grenades.

Hello, T3 instant death!

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Aubec le noir on Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:17 am

ok they left me something after all !! Twisted Evil Razz Razz
thanks for the remark, btw ! cheers
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Last edited by Aubec le noir on Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by SmokinBrown on Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:16 pm

Ah yeah that works, I'm happy with that.
I thought it was fun killing dreadnoughts with a sword though

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Tiberius on Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:44 am

I'm not so sure the rule on page 32 actually applies to Hammerhand. Is there any mention of psychic powers counting as special rules? Because in the rulebook, under "Types of Psychic Powers", Blessings are mentioned as granting either "characteristic boosts or additional special rules". I know Hammerhand isn't classified as a blessing, but it does illustrate that psychic powers in themselves aren't special rules. Their effects -could- be. Hence Hammerhand does nothing more than apply a characteristics boost, and there's nothing saying those aren't cumulative nor that a unit can't be targeted by the same psychic power from different sources multiple times.

Therefore, RAW, Hammerhand still stacks I'd reckon. RAI is not up to me to determine Razz

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by SmokinBrown on Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:48 am

Ah we'll in that case I also reckon it stacks lol Smile

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Omenos on Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:21 am

Ok, I've had three GW store managers and a TO all independently state outright that Hammerhand does not stack for the reasons Jeffersonian and I outlined.

Does this help?

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by bigbri on Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:39 am

Not massively tbh, answers from GW staff tend to be their own opinion/ reading of the rules, and in my experience they're frequently wrong. Case in point in my first ever beginner game of 5th I was using some wolf guard termies with an assault cannon. I was told I was cheating(not just mistaken about the rule mind you but actually cheating) by moving and firing a heavy weapon. I dug up the page in the dex that says termies are relentless and his response was that it must be a SW only thing lol

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by DonFer on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:00 am

True, brother!
GW has removed the Hammerhand Stacks FAQ so that's an indication, if only feeble, that Hammerhand no longer stacks. I tend to agree that it doesn't stack anymore. When in doubt, I rather go with the "you can't" alternative. It's better that way.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Tiberius on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:21 am

Agreeing with brother bigbri here, Store Managers or TO:s have about as much say in how to interpret rules (outside of their own events, of course) as any other player.

RAW-wise, I refer to what I said above: the rule of special rules applying only once unless otherwise stated, applies to special rules and not psychic powers. Unless said psychic powers confers special rules, of course. But hammerhand applies a characteristics modifier and not a special rule.

RAI, I'm not leaning in any given direction atm. Hammerhand used to stack, and unless GW specifically state it no longer does I think I'll continue to see it as such. Not sure I'd attempt it in a game simply because I don't want the discussion though. Razz

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by SmokinBrown on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:00 am

+1 to Tiberius and Bigbri, I'm of the same thinking here, that RAW is it can, but I wouldn't play it that way.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by jeffersonian000 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:36 pm

I've agrued this on other forums, fulling supported by the rules as written. In essense, the only ruling that allowed Hammerhand to stack was in the last set of FAQs release for 5th edition, and that's it. Nowhere in 5th was power stacking allowed until those FAQs, and nowhere in 6th is power stack allowed at all unless otherwise noted in the individual powers' entries.

Starting off with pg. 32 of the BRB, we see that benefits gained from the same special rule are not cumulative unless otherwise noted. We also see that any rule or ability that changes or bends the general rules is a Special Rule, to which the special rule Psyker is noted on pg. 41, which then references its own set of rules starting on pg. 66. Further, we see on pg. 68 that unless otherwise noted the same benefit from different powers are cumultive. This means that the +1 strength from Hammerhand would not stack with the +1 strength from Might of Titan if it wasn't for both the rule on pg. 68 of the BRB and the note on pg. 25 of the GK Codex under "Might of Titan" that gives permission. This also means that multiple castings of Hammerhand will always net a single +1 to strength because each cating of Hammerhand is from the same power/special rule (not different powers) and that benefits from the same special rule are not cumulative.

Why does the BRB state that not all psychic powers are special rules? Because of all the different types of psychic powers, only psychic shooting attacks (aka, Witchfire powers) neither bend nor change the rules, and therefore are not special rules in and of themselves (yet some many include addition special rules per their individual entries).

Since Hammerhand is a buff that changes the stat-line of models that receive its benefit, the special rule of +1 strength is not cumulative per RAW. We do have specific permission both within RAW and in the GK Codex for Might of Titan to stack with Hammerhand, however.

Hopefully that clears things up.

SJ

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Tiberius on Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:02 pm

jeffersonian000 wrote:
...

SJ

Actually, not all abilities and rules that bend the basic rules are special rules. Only the rules mentioned under the Special Rules header are known as special rules, and those are only laid out on page 32-43. Then comes the Unit Types part of what is known as the Advanced Rules. As written on page 7, we have the Basic ruleset versus the Advanced ruleset. Special rules are a part of this ruleset, but psychic powers, unit types, weapon profiles etc. are not considered special rules. They are simply part of the Advanced Ruleset, which overrides the basic. This is why psychic powers sometimes apply Special Rules, but not all powers are Special Rules in themselves. Characteristic modifiers themselves are actually covered in Models & Units on page 2, as part of the basic ruleset. Not under Special Rules.

TL;DR: Psychic Powers as covered on page 66-69 are part of the advanced ruleset, but are not Special Rules. Those are instead only covered on page 32-43 of the BRB, hence the rule you refer to on page 32 does not affect psychic powers in any manner, with the exception that psychic powers may apply special rules if they are specified as doing such.

I'd still say my point is valid. Very Happy

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by jeffersonian000 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:43 pm

Your point is only valid if you can cite a rule that states that benefits from multiple castings of the same psychic power are cumulative. If you cannot, then my point is valid.

SJ

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Tiberius on Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:47 am

jeffersonian000 wrote:Your point is only valid if you can cite a rule that states that benefits from multiple castings of the same psychic power are cumulative. If you cannot, then my point is valid.

SJ

Actually, the burden of proof is upon you. Had hammerhand been worded "[...] all models in the unit under effect of hammerhand receives +1 Strength [...]" I might have been inclined to agree with you, as that would mean that the buff itself is applied as a special rule. But currently, it is worded "If the psychic test is passed, all models in the unit have +1 Strength until the end of the Assault Phase". The Psychic Power confers a characteristic modifier, not a special rule. And there is nothing that stops characteristic modifiers from stacking.

We know the 5th ed. FAQ clarified that hammerhand is allowed to stack with itself. The 6th ed. FAQ mentions nothing of this, but the wording in the codex has not changed. Hence, it is up to you to cite the rule which states that a psychic power cannot be cast on a unit several times as long as it originates from different sources. That is the rule that would prove your point. I repeat, as Hammerhand merely grants +1 strength rather than the buff Hammerhand as of the powers wording, it is allowed to stack. That is RAW.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Omenos on Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:48 am

Tiberius wrote:We know the 5th ed. FAQ clarified that hammerhand is allowed to stack with itself. The 6th ed. FAQ mentions nothing of this, but the wording in the codex has not changed.

That does not automatically therefore mean that it's allowed, 5th ed and 6th ed are two different rule sets, just because one allowed it after an FAQ doesnt mean that it is automatically allowed because it hasn't been clarified. If that was your only argument my eyebrows would be raised right now (don't worry they're not up as secretly i would like a convincing arguement to say i could gave a S8 deathstar for less than 500 points :p )

Tiberius wrote:Hence, it is up to you to cite the rule which states that a psychic power cannot be cast on a unit several times as long as it originates from different sources.

Quick question, how do we know that a unit can't target the same unit with the same power multiple times?

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