Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by jeffersonian000 on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:00 pm

SmokinBrown wrote:Jeffersonian, Tiberius has made no assumptions throughout his argument and always quoted rules exactly as they appear in their respective sources, exercising particular care with phrases such as "can/may apply" and "does/will apply", the former of which is situational and the latter of which is definite. RAW is undeniably that hammerhand stacks.

SB

And I ask again, where is permission to stack? Cite that rule, please.

SJ

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Omenos on Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:19 am

SJ...

There is no where that explicitly states whether you can or can't do this in the BRB. Surely you realise this otherwise there wouldn't even be a debate about it. I would strongly suggest a different approach to your argument...

On a personal note: I'm still not 100% convinced about Hammerhand stacking. The reason why is purely RAW vs. RAI which can't really be resolved in any reasonable manner in a discussion like this as none of us can know the real intention without clarification from the person who wrote the ruling. As I mentioned earlier, I have emailed the FAQ and errata team and hopefully it'll appear in the next GK FAQ...

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Souba on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:26 am

there are many things in this game that are not stated correctly or got a errata for. another example are fiends of slaanesh. they reduce the iniative of all enemys they attack by -5.

unlike the mask for example wich can also reduce the initiative by 5 there also stands (up to a minimum of 1) while th fiends dont got that spelling.

there are also 2 camps one says "the enemy doesnt attack with initiative 0 because initiative only goes from stepts 10-1" other say "you cant reduce below 1 (even though its nowhere stated that you cant reduce a value to 0 in both, codex and rulebook)


in the end it depends on your meta, the people you play with etc. talk with each other and just enjoy the game.

a argument like this here, going over 6 pages in wich both sided have rights and wrongs does nothing unless GW changes something. so guys. let it rest, take a breath and let your meta decide what rules do apply

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Rivan on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:51 pm

Brother Souba hit it on the head Smile

I don't even worry about it. I ask the TO's before a tourney starts what their ruling is and just play accordingly.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by jeffersonian000 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:37 pm

My point is that this is a permissive rule set, which means that you are only allowed to do what you are given permission to do. In my earlier posts, I have cited the rules that define when and how benefits are cumulative. What I asked of those that believe Hammerhand stacks is to please point out where in the BRB, GK Codex, or recent FAQ that permission has been granted for Hammerhand to stack.

It doesn't matter if you believe the rules granted by psychic powers are "special rules" or not, as psychic powers have a specific rule that tells us only benefits from different psychic powers are cumulative. And if you follow my argument regarding special rules applying to psychic powers, then it can be plainly seen that benefits from the same ability are not cumulative.

So, I ask again, where in this permissive rule set does it grant permission for Hammerhand to stack? If the answer is "nowhere", then we can safely determine that multiple castings of Hammerhand are not cumulative. If the answer is "the rule is on ", then please cite that rule!

SJ

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by kjhome on Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:04 pm

I'm glad that I have never played where the hammerhand's from two of the IC's stack, I've only played where as the unit cast hammerhand and the librarian cast might of titan. I avoid all arguments. I still get instant death on most things because of the rad grenades, MoT, and Hammerhand. I do not have to make the adjustments where they do not stack.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by kjhome on Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:12 pm

I have another question about force weapons, I played a game where Kharn supposedly gets a two+ save against force weapons. I thought force weapons are treated as power weapons until they are "activated". I do not have to test when I kill models without an invulnerable save, which leads me to believe that grey knight weapons are power weapons until "activated".

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Rivan on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:28 pm

Our nemesis force weapons, just like all other force weapons, are considered force weapons whether it is activated or not. At least that's how I understand it.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by volvoe on Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:48 pm

I agree with Rivan. And I'm not entirely sure what you're asking kjhome? scratch

In a way you could see that force weapons are very similar to power weapons (ap values and what not), but force weapons are better in the regard that you can "activate it" when you cause an unsaved wound. Activating a force weapon causes instant death to enemy models with multiple wounds. So if you're fighting someone with just 1 wound, sure force is just like a power weapon. However when fighting let's say a monstrous creature, HQ, anything with more than one wound, force has better killing potential.

For our nemesis force weapons, we have additional rules in the codex that says how our force weapons are even better than regular 'ol force weapons. So basically force weapons are force weapons and power weapons are power weapons (common sense). The difference is that force has additional rules, so you can't label a force weapon as a power weapon that can activated which means Kharn will get his 2+ saves against us (if that's really the case).

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by kjhome on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:55 pm

I should have called the Kharn player on that rule, just seems unfair that Kharn can hit on a 2+, and, I guess, be str 7-8 on the charge. Then gets 2+ invul against me. Not to mention that his weapon is ap2 supposedly, at int 5.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by DonFer on Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:24 pm

"All Nemesis weapons are Force weapons" sez the codex. So there you go.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by jeffersonian000 on Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:50 pm

.... shoot him till he dies, and never let him into charge range?

Tands to work for me, anyway.

SJ

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Rivan on Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:11 pm

jeffersonian000 wrote:.... shoot him till he dies, and never let him into charge range?

Tands to work for me, anyway.

SJ

+1 Smile

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by Aubec le noir on Wed May 01, 2013 5:57 am

+1 with my brothers ... That's the truth for all cc brutes, like Kharn, but for other Berserkers too, for the genstealers, Ork Nobz and so on... you have to shoot them to death, and never, never let them charge you !! Evil or Very Mad affraid ... Razz
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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by kjhome on Wed May 01, 2013 10:31 am

Rivan wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:.... shoot him till he dies, and never let him into charge range?

Tands to work for me, anyway.

SJ

+1 Smile

You guys are right, guess I'm just venting. Kharn was making me sooooooo angry.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

Post by kjhome on Wed May 01, 2013 10:32 am

Kharn will be executed my next game with him.

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Re: Hammerhand and Nemesis Force Weapons Question

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