My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

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My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Steel on Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:59 am

I stand and salute all of you, fellow brothers of the Ordo!
I'm Brother Steel, newly deployed in the subsector Italy of this tainted planet.

Before starting my operations, i'd really appreciate the opinions of you, more seasoned warriors, about the strike force i've been able to recruit.
Actually it consist of:

- HQ "Caesar": (317)
Brother Captain "Romulus" with Master Crafted Psycannon & Auspex (108)
Retinue: 4x Terminators with 1 Psycannon (209)

- Squad "Aurelia": (307)
Justicar "Marcus" with Psycannon & Auspex (82)
7x PAGK with 2x Psycannons (225)

- Squad "Imperialis": (295)
Justicar "Augustus" (50)
9x PAGK with 2x Incinerators (245)

- Heavy Supports "Fists of the Emperor": (580)
Land Rider "Right Hand" and Land Rider "Left Hand"
both with Dozer Blade, Extra Armour, Hunter Killer Missile, Multi Melta, Smoke & Searchlight.

TOTAL: 1499

The usual Tactic is to use the HQ and the Psycannons Squad as a firing position, supported by one of the land riders if any of these squad have to move, and leave the 'cinnie squad inside the other LR that will carry them wherever the Emperor will need them.

Any suggestion is hearty welcomed.
The Auspexes and the extra armour are fill-ins (even if the extra armour is handy)

On a note, me and my playing group agreed that the GK codex is somewhat outdated, so i use the rules of the actual space Marines Codex for those things we have in common (like Extra Armour and Hunter Killer Missile for vehicles, or Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer etc. etc. )
Also, it's np if you suggest some changes that lead me to sightly pass the 1500 line... if i go 1505 noone says nothing.

Sorry for all the errors i commonly do in English and for the bit of "roleplay" i've put in this post, but was my 1st, wanted it to be funny at least.
So, i thank you all in advance for all the support and salute you once more

The Emperor Protects!
Steel

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Grimhack on Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am

Well first off, the justicar can't take a psycannon and I can't remember a multi melta being a choice for normal land raiders in our, as you stated, outdated codex. But as you said you're using some rules of the space marine codex, it could be ofcourse from them.
Then some of my tips. At 1500 points I think 2 troops squads is maybe a bit too few. Personally I run 3 8-man squads, 2 with one incinerator to go in the landraiders and one with 2 psycannons for firesupport/ capturing the home objective.
Remember that 2 incinerators might have alot of potential, but you make your knights more expensive with a usually one use weapon, and sacrifice the nemesis force weapon and an attack.
I also like to use a terminator psycannon squad, but mostly because they can move and still fire at maximum range.

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Steel on Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:14 am

Hello Grimhack and thanks for your answer.
well, on the codex i read that for a normal troop 2 models can switch theyr weapons for a psycannon, and i did it. on the other hand, it says the justicar is allowed to take any equipment from the armory, and so i gave him another psycannon aswell, and i don't think it counts toward the max-2-psycannons stated above... please correct me if i'm wrong Smile
i've also asked the other players of my group what they tought and they see it like me, so if you guys think this is wrong please tell me Smile

Yes, the multi-melta is from the SM codex (i think also FW uses this rule but i haven't checked yet)

I actually have played a couple of matches this afternoon against a well hardened Space Marine army (damn Vulkan makes all the army really super strong!!)
and i can say i'm pretty satisfied the way GK works... the only thing i'm not really happy with is the Termin shooting squad indeed... they got pretty much halved down and killed almost nothing... any suggestion? how do you play them?

thanks for your inputs, as usual

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Nausaden on Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:08 pm

Welcome to our sacred home Brother Steel; always good to have another incorruptible warrior Very Happy

As for the list, it doesn't look bad so far. I suggest trying to run at least 3 7 man squads of Grey Knights after 1000 points. The 9 man squad with 2 Incinerators is overkill; chances are that the fire will cleanse most everything and the stormbolters will clean up, so you won't take advantage of their assault. A smaller squad of 7 with two incinerators would still be able to clean up mobs and will allow you to strengthen your other squads up.

The retinue looks good, psycannons are always satisfying as long as you remember to stay mobile with them and utilize both LR's to their maximum potential. They are great for assaulting, so don't just keep them at the back, as that's waaay too many points wasted for a squad that can pretty much slay ANYTHING. I suggest giving the Brother Captain the psyker power Hammer Hand, to take out vehicles/massive creatures and giving the Justicar's melta bombs to do the same, if their Str 6 can't do the dirty work.

I wish you success in your upcoming battles Brother Steel!

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Grimhack on Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:27 pm

Well, you should look at the intro to the wargear section, and don't go like me and just wander to the things you can choose from before reading everything. It says that grey knights in power armour can't change their weapons (unless given in their entry). It has been discussed on this forum as well as others if you could give a psycannon to a justicar if you gave him artificier armour but I don't really agree with that.
Anyway, Nausaden said what I forgot to mention, if you use 2 incinerators you'll likely see that the charge distance gets enlarged too much, turning your target from certain death to a possible threat to your knights or just destroying it and leaving your knights stranded for incoming fire.
Don't forget that the fastest way to cross the battlefield is by charging.

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Steel on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:57 pm

Hello Brother Nausaden, and thank you for your kind answer!
i see your points here, and i'm actually modelling my list a bit, i'll maybe post the update here tomorrow after i'm done with my toughts.
In the few games i played i indeed saw that a 3rd squad would have been handy, but i saw many lists on this forum going for 2 squad as i did, more or less, so wanted to give it a try.
I wonder where i'll get the points tho... a 8-man squad (7 pagk and the justicar) is 225 points... wich means 675 points for 3 squads and not counting any upgrade... then i have 580 for the LRs with the blade,melta,extra armour and missile...
that means i have only 245 points for BC and retinue... wich means the BC and only 3 termies... and the only psycannon i have is on the BC and the squads have no 'cinnie or psycann. either... i don't know, i'm not so sure atm... even if i agree another squad might indeed be useful Smile

Brother Grimhack, you are right, i forgot to read the last sentence, where it says PAGK can only take from the "equipment" list, and not from "weapons" ... damn it!!
But tbh i have not understude what it means "and they cannot use lesser items" .
Anyway, here it comes 30 points i can use elsewere...

Thanks both for your important inputs, keep them coming!
i'm going to study the situation a little more study Very Happy

the Emperor protects!
Steel

EDIT:
i don't know how the heck i did the dice roll under here... lolz


Last edited by Steel on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Inquisitor Lord on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:57 pm

The member 'Steel' has done the following action : Dice rolls

'shooting' : 6

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Grimhack on Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:18 am

They say lesser weapons because they see their own weapons as holy.
Aside from that, I don't know if a missile on the landraider is really worth it. In the few games that I used it, it didn't do anything and in all the others where I didn't use it, I didn't miss it.
My point is, a landraider already has formidable anti tank power and if you're able to add a melta on it then it just gets better. So why would you need a weapon that's one shot only and isn't as good as your lascannons?
Dropping them gives you some points to play with aswell Smile

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Steel on Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:05 am

mmm yeah you're quite right Grimhack...
i took the missiles because it means 2 free shots at turn-1 with unlimited range, so i can hit even what's out of range for my lasers...and basically because with my super-great luck on the rolls, my LRs usually pop 1 rhino in an entire battle and get killed at turn-2... probably i need to learn how to play them better, i actually used them as a fire base that stays fixed until it needs to move a troop when they get too close... but i usually do 1 or 2 moves with them, not more. Suggestions and tacticas on this are highly appreciated Very Happy lol
20 points for 2 one-use weapons is a bit, you're right...expecially because they're not linked.
But i was thinking if it's the case to keep the missile and drop the Melta... it only shoots 24'' and really hurts at 12'' but in my picture, by the time they get 12'' from me i should have already destroyed theyr heavy stuff... what's your idea?

Just as a note, yesterday i've had my usual match against SM.
At turn-5 Vulkan and his 4-termies were close to my BC and retinue and i assaulted them.
Vulkan (I5) killed 2 of my termies. My BC and all of the remaining Terminator attacked Vulkan, and on 13 attacks saving on 3+ he saved ALL!!
then his termies attacked my term and wiped them out Sad so sad lol
(and i have shot on Vulkan and his unit an enitire turn with my term. psycannons ans bolters...no wounds aswell)

I'm quite disappointed by the terminators tbh... they cost a huge chunk of points and i don't see them earn theyr money.
In shooting, they (at very best) shoot with 2 psycannons... Ok they can move and shoot-heavy that's a good point... but still, it's only 6 shots not linked or anything.
In melee they got wiped out causing NO wounds at all...saving at 5+ sucks
i don't know... i can't really see what's going on with them

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Grimhack on Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:23 am

Well, for the raiders, I personally keep them moving. With power of the machine spirit I can move them 6" and still fire two lascannons, even at different targets. You can also manoeuvre them so that they can blast at your target while the rest of the enemy army can't blast at your land raider (Or not as good anyway, it's waay too big to really hide).
Then the terminators, generally speaking, 3+ invulnerable saves are downright dirty. Doesn't matter how you look at it. But you have to target smart, if that vulkan was with ordinary terminators and not the dirty thunderhammer guys then you should've targetted the ordinary terminators because vulkan has already done damage. If your termies had killed some of the other termies then you would loose less yourself, maybe get a win out of combat resolution and maybe even forcing them to run.
Of course, it is still a dice game and luck has to be on your side but you can't go saying something is bad because in one battle they really sucked. Try a few games, maybe next time they'll wipe half of the enemies forces!
The reason why GK terminators are so strong (maybe not in your opinion but anyway...) is because they strike at initiative, with WS 5 and powerweapons at S6.

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Steel on Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:02 am

oki, thanks for the idea on the raiders. i'll try to use it paired with smart deploying Smile

As for the terminators, yeah the WS 5 and S6 is really good but that's something also the normal troop of PAGK does... and the PAGK also get True Git, while the terminators doesn't, so they also have the very same attacks (ok, termie have 1 more in charge anyway) so the only thing the termin. have stronger then the normal troop is a (much) better armor save and the power weapons... i'm not sure it's enough no justify theyr price tbh.
Today i played also against an Ork army.
I destroyed his Battletank on 1st turn, and then i fired on his HQ (warboss with some other big boyz around) with the other LR, with the termie psycannons and with the PAGK psycannons... no wounds lol.
then they reached my termy in cc and my termin and Bc killed only 1 of his "retinue" before getting obliterated in 1 phase...
Probably it's just me not being very lucky with the rolls but i feel a bit "meh... " about this...

On the other hand, what do you do against such resilient opponents, like the Space Marines TH/SS terminators?
anyone can sugest me how to kill those beasts? they really are annoying beyond any limit...

EDIT:
maybe i have to just run away from enemy overpowered HQ and let my termin. destroy other normal/elite troops?

EDIT 2:
how much is worth the extra armour and the extra multi melta on the LR?
'cause 30 points for the armor and 20 for the meltas is quite alot for us...

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Grimhack on Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:00 pm

On the raiders first, for the pure DH codex the extra armour is alot cheaper and definitely worth it.
What I do with really resilient troops, now taking a seer council on bikes as example, (8 guys 3+ save and 4+ invulnerable and their failed saves may be rerolled) what you do with those nasty critters is just throw everything at them at once. I destroyed them by throwing in a grandmaster with his last remaining terminator, a brother captain with 2 remaining terminators and 2 squads of 8 knights. Remember, if you force him to make a shitload of saves, he eventually fails enough of them.

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Tiberius on Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:36 am

Steel wrote:
EDIT 2:
how much is worth the extra armour and the extra multi melta on the LR?
'cause 30 points for the armor and 20 for the meltas is quite alot for us...

The extra armour, if taken from your own armoury, is worth ALOT on Land Raiders. You get to keep your mobility, and thanks to the "Power of the Machine Spirit" you can still fire one of the godhammers, even if the enemy scores a stun! The meltas on the other hand... Your vehicles are already packing TWO godhammers, and if moving, which they should be since enemy infantry and walkers might get annoying in cc at those distances, the Land Raider would have to discard the ability to fire with one godhammer for their Melta. And the Melta is neither twin-linked nor much more effective than the Lascannon before it gets within 12" of the enemy. And it's just not worth the points for the increase you see while there.

I'd say skip the melta and use the armour in our own codex. Goes from 50 to 10 points, which means an addition of a PAGK and some wargear, or, since you're only packing two scoring units, you could remove a terminator, or all the retinue (since you've said it yourself, they haven't been acting properly on the battlefield. Send them back for purgation and re-teaching at titan, and use them in later lists should you wish to) and add in some inquisitorial stormtroopers. And, you could pack them in a chimera and throw two meltaguns into the bunch, giving you some of the firepower you'd miss out on the Land Raiders. But hey, two godhammers aren't that bad either, nay? cheers

So, you'd earn 40 points on using your own codex for extra armour and not using meltas on the Raiders.

Should you remove the whole terminator retinue as well, you'd be sitting on another 209 points, for a total of 249 points! That would, of course, make your BC a little lonely. But hey, spend 84 points of them and you got a Grand Master! 165 points left then. Let's use a 100 of those to add you a Justicar and two NFW-wielding PAGKs. What we'll do with these, is to form a new PAGK unit, with them and the two psycannon-wielding PAGKs. After that, we'll transfer an Incinerator-wielding knight to the 7-man squad, so that you have two eight-man teams have one each. This means you won't be burning your assaults to oblivion (Due to, as others have mentioned, the problem with actually causing so many casualties that you won't reach the enemy) and you got a long-ranged heavy-weapons platform to support your advancing knights as well as aid the stormtroopers should the enemy be closing in on them.

65 points left. First, all the Justicars should be fitted with targeters. These can be of extreme use, since you'd be able to measure the range to all the enemy units. This shows you not only who you can shoot at, but also who's posing the most danger towards you. Can those plasma-cannons reach? Will those assault marines be able to assault me next turn? Having the possibility to answer this for all your units can be crucial! never underestimate the use of a targeter, and heck, they only cost 1 point!

62 points left. Your two incinerator-wielding squads Justicars should have frag grenades as well, since they'll be doing the assaulting. 60 points left. I'm not sure how useful those auspexes would be, since many infiltrators are set up out of sight of the target. So I'd remove them. 64 points. Now that most of your equipments from your own codex, I'd say go all out and remove the hunter-killer missiles from the Land Raiders, giving you 10 more points per LR since you've counted them by the space marines codex. They aren't as useful as you might think. This means, though, that the Smoke Launchers and Searchlights have to be purchased from the armoury. But that's only four points each, and you can do without the lights. Remember that GK Land Raiders still have the "Power of the Machine Spirit" and "Assault Vehicle" rules as written in the Space Marines codex, according to our FAQ. And I just noticed I forgot to remove your Justicars illegitimate Psycannon earlier. Another 30 points! 108 points then. Oh, and your army only reached 1499 points, so there's one extra point there! Razz 109 points. Now, that's enough for you to either choose to reinforce your forces with four grey knights, say one in each assault unit and two in the fire-support squad, or you could field a unit of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers which would give you another scoring unit which can hang around your objective, or, when mounted in a rhino or chimera, claim others. If you go for the mobile idea, you'd afford a rhino with extra armour and smoke launchers and five vanilla stormtroopers. Not much of a punch nor survivability, but if you can make sure the enemy focuses on your Land Raiders and PAGKs, they might actually be able to snatch an objective. Should you go with the sitting duck idea, t further reinforce your own objective, I'd suggest eight troopers, of which one is carrying a meltagun and one is carrying a flamer, so that they can lay down some fire upon transport vehicles and their passengers before these can get into an assault with your unit. The sitting ducks would cost 95 points, so you'd have 14 points left for other purchases. You could always reduce the number of stormtroopers, but these guys will die faster than your common Grey Knights, should they come under heavy fire.

Now now, what can we get you... How about Psycannon Bolts for your Fire-Support Justicar? It's as close as you can get to the Psycannon you gave him earlier. Oh, and let's return the auspexes to your Grand Master and the Psycannon squad, since I have no friggin' idea of what to do with the 4 points left! Rolling Eyes

- HQ
Grand Master "Romulus" with Auspex and Master Crafted Psycannon (192)

Troops
- Squad "Aurelia": (213)
Justicar "Marcus" with Auspex, Psycannon Bolts & Targeter (63)
4x PAGK with 2x Psycannons (150)

- Squad "Imperialis": (237)
Justicar "Augustus" with Frag Grenades & Targeter (52)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

- Squad "Somethingius": (237)
Justicar "Whatshisnameius" with Frag Grenades & Targeter (52)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

- IST Squad "Worn-out socks": (95)
8 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers w. 1 Meltagun and 1 Flamer (95)

- Heavy Supports "Fists of the Emperor": (526)
Land Rider "Right Hand" and Land Rider "Left Hand"
both with Dozer Blades, Extra Armour, Smoke Launchers

-Total: (1500)

And there you have it! Heck... I think this is what I'll stick to as well! Or, since I'm lacking a terminator with a Psycannon, I'll stick to a Grand Master with a normal bolter, and use the 45 points as well as the points from the auspexes and Psycannon Bolts to invest in a Rhino with Extra Amour and Smoke Launchers to increase the versatility of my ISTs, giving me a list like this;

- HQ
Grand Master (145)

Troops
- PAGK Fire-Support Squad: (202)
Justicar with Frag Grenades & Targeter (52)
4x PAGK with 2x Psycannons (150)

- PAGK Assault Squad: (237)
Justicar "Augustus" with Frag Grenades & Targeter (52)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

- PAGK Assault Squad: (237)
Justicar "Whatshisnameius" with Frag Grenades & Targeter (52)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

- IST Squad: (153)
8 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers w. 1 Meltagun and 1 Flamer (95)
Mounted in a Rhino with Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers (58)

- Heavy Supports "Fists of the Emperor": (526)
Land Rider "Right Hand" and Land Rider "Left Hand"
both with Dozer Blades, Extra Armour, Smoke Launchers

-Total: (1500)

And that's my two--- quadzillion cents. If anyone's managed to read through this wall of text, feel free to comment! sunny

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Grimhack on Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:35 am

My personal add, I don't really use auspexes 'cause you don't really see alot of infiltrators in my local gaming store. What I do use on all my squads though is unguents of warding. This upgrade is just golden for the low point cost for it. After you fail a psychic hood test (remember to bring one, those nasty eldar can survive alot more if you don't stop things like fortune) you can still use a 4+ save against the effects of the psychic powers directed to the squad. So also remember that warlocks, who don't need to test for their psychic powers, still can't get around the 4+ save if they target your squad.

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Steel on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:02 pm

Hello Brother Tiberius, welcome and thanks for your very great inputs!!
some really good ideas there, nice one, thank you very much, and amazing work you did with all the point counts and stuff!!
I really appreciated it, thank you Smile
I tryed the IST on my last game and well... they got obliterated before even shooting 1 bolt... ok, i was playing against Tau and they popped my rhino and focused-fire on the Ist...not much can survive it...but i'll test it again to see what they can do in a less "lucky" situation Wink

About the Termin. retinue... i must admit i'm sad to loose them, as they are an "icon" of this game and of the "space-marine" oriented armies...but on the other hand i could have some very good improvements for the other squads.
I think i'll have to try it and see how do i feel, but 3 squads of nicely tailored PAGK are somewhat sweeeeet!

For the targeters...i have to admit i can't actually see theyr use, i'm pretty good at judging distances and most of the times, with our long-range weapons target is always in range... one thing it could be handy for is to understand if a near enemy troop can assault you next turn, but since you can use the Targeter only in the shooting phase, movement is already gone so... i'll keep them in mind if i have 2 points spare.

The psycannon bolts is another thing i actually can't understand... they just give AP4 to the bolter and negate inv. save... wich is useful only against limited troops...like some imperial guard or the tau's firewarriors...and the deamons ofc, but 10 points is a bit nasty for this low results

If i take the GM, should i leave him alone or i should attach him to a squad? and if so, wich one?
the shooting one to make use of his psycannon, or an assaulting one to make use of his uber cc abilityes?

Brother Grimhack, your helps are indeed valuable and i have to say thanks once more.
The unguents of warding are a nice addition, but i don't think i'll field a psychic hood... we already have a nice rule that negates the psikers on us...shouldn't it be just enough?

And about the changes on the LRs...it's true that taking everything from our codex makes me save some points there, wich is indeed good...but on the other hand means that i must use also the Storm Shield / Thunder Hammer from our codex, and this could be bad in the case i should try to keep the Retinue and take 1 or 2 termie with the cc combo to give them better resistance in melee...

On a note, is it worth it to take the Holocaust power for the termie and / or the Bc/Gm?
if the Bc/Gm wants to use holocaust and let's say it dies because of enemy higher Initiative... the power still goes on if i passed the test or it stops?
'cause if the psyker gets killed by the "perils of the warp" the power he was casting lands the same, so i was wondering...

Thank you all so much for your helps, they are of great use!

The Emperor Protects!
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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Tiberius on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:41 pm

I'm glad my wall of text was appreciated! And it is true that the ISTs are squishy, the trick ought to be to push them down below cover, or having them hiding on the rhino, which should be put out of the enemies LOS if possible. They're main purpose is really to snatch an objective while the enemy is busy thinking on the grey knights spewing bolter rounds into his/her troops.

You've pretty much settled on trying with and without the retinue as well, so there's not much more to say there. Smile

And indeed, movement have already been performed when the targeters can be used, but, it can let you choose if you should run, either towards, or against, the enemy, and on the assault manner, if you can see that the enemy is about to assault you, you can direct heavy fire there to try to cause them to fall back, which could render those troops useless for the next turn, at the least. And should they not pose any grave danger, you could instead turn your psycannons towards the enemy heavies instead. I recommend having at least one on your fire-support squad, since its measuring will often pass your other squads, giving you a hint about whether their in range or not as well.

Indeed, our Storm Shield suck. but remember, our Thunder Hammers renders a victim entirely unable to attack next turn, even though this isn't enough to make up for the lousy shield. I'd say go with my ideas without the retinue, but should you include them, you might want to use the space marines ruleset instead.

Oh, and the psycannon bolts were just a filler, since I wasn't sure what to spend the last 14 points on really, and you wanted a psycannon on your justicar, so... Razz I'd actually recommend my second list before my first, and I'd make a few minor modification to it, which, incidentally, I've already made in another thread where I try to form a list for myself! Very Happy

So, I'l just post it here;
HQ
- Grand Master (145)

Troops
- PAGK Fire-Support Squad: (202)
Justicar with Auspex & Targeter (52)
4x PAGK with 2x Psycannons (150)

- PAGK Assault Squad: (237)
Justicar with Frag Grenades & Targeter (52)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

- PAGK Assault Squad: (237)
Justicar with Frag Grenades & Targeter (52)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

- IST Squad: (158)
8 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers w. 2 Meltaguns (100)
Mounted in a Rhino with Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers (58)

Heavy Support: (520)
Land Rider with Dozer Blades and Extra Armour (260)
Land Rider with Dozer Blades and Extra Armour (260)

Total (1499)

Note that there's no longer Smoke Launchers on the Raiders. But hey, it's not really worth sacrificing a round of shooting with Godhammers for downgrading penetrating hits, since there shouldn't be many at our AR14 beasts.

Oh, and note that the GM's no longer carrying his Psycannon. As you said before, to use it with much success, he would have to be kept near the Fire-Support squad. And we don't want to waste his CC-capabilities like that. So, he goes, with his trusty stormbolter, along with a squad in one of the raiders once the time has come.

Oh, and I believe the Holocaust test is actually taken when you reach initiative 1 in the combat, so if the caster goes before that, you can't use it. :Scratch:

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Grimhack on Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:30 am

Well, holocaust is a power that is used at initiative 1 so if your psyker dies before that, you can't use the power. The point of a psychic hood, best actually on the inquisitor lord as firebase, is that you test with Ld 10 instead of 9 or 8 and you can block buffs like warptime, fortune, ...
You should ALWAYS put a grandmaster in a retinue or downgrade him to a BC because if he's on his own he gets shot to ribbons because people fear him and if he's in a squad he'll get a powerfist in his face, instantkilling him. In his retinue you can take the powerfist on an ordinary terminator.
The targetters are for thinking in the future, I hope you don't play thinking about just the next turn?

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Steel on Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:34 am

Hello again brothers!

listening to the precious suggestions of both of you, i tryed to put down another list.
I must admit i really dislike the IST and so i removed them to fit a retinue to my HQ...probably i have to leand how to use the HQ-squad better, since so many people seems to love terminators, and even i feel some sort of friendship with them... Smile
The GM is indeed very powerful but even if its fair point-wise (probably one of the best deal in our codex), it's still quite alot for us on a single model at 1500 points...
So the list i have in mind atm is something like this:

HQ
- Bc with psyc. & Targeter(92)
RETINUE
- 4x Terminators (184) (2x normal and 2x ss/th) (ss/th uses SM rules so 3+ inv. save and I1 on wounded models)

Troops
- PAGK Fire-Support Squad: (202)
Justicar with Auspex & Targeter (52)
4x PAGK with 2x Psycannons (150)

- PAGK Assault Squad: (241)
Justicar with Frag Grenades & Meltas (56)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

- PAGK Assault Squad: (241)
Justicar with Frag Grenades & Meltas (56)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

Heavy Support: (540)
Land Rider with Dozer Blades and Extra Armour (270) (using SM rules so also 4+ cover from smoke and searchlight)
Land Rider with Dozer Blades and Extra Armour (270) (same as above)

Total (1500)

I must admit i'm not happy with the HQ having no psichic powers and the retinue having no Psycannon to help and support the Bc... i'm trying to fix it somehow...
One of the possible solutions is to use only 3 terminators, but then i fear i would have a too fragile retinue...what do you think?
Another idea is to stick to our rules on our codex, so i can save 18 points on the LRs, but then the smoke would be really weakened and so the ss/th.
Or i can leave the psycannon to also the Bc and make them more "assault" oriented, maybe with an incinerator, and pack them on a Lr for a tour.
Not sure, need to refine the ideas a little better.

Anyway, the structure of the army i want to build is there:
HQ with the retinue
fire-support squad
2x assault squad
2x LRs

I'd really love the HQ & retinue to have psycannons and psichic powers (holo to retinue and hammerhand to Bc)... need to try and do some math with these...

I do not play thinking just about the next turn but i still find it a bit hard to foresee on a longer time... i'm not very experienced as a player (remember i started just 1 week ago or so) and so it's still hard for me to understand what will probably happen.
Probably the targeters can help me in this?
i hope so Very Happy

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Tiberius on Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:16 am

With the exception that models in terminator armour can't use targeters, your list is pretty solid I guess.

And while you would gain a number of positive effects from using Space Marines Rules, I'd still prefer to use my own codex, and show those thinking that our third edition codex is nothing compared to their fifth eds., that the Grey Knights, when used with thought and consideration, can beat anything!

But then again, that's just me Razz Oh, and notice that in the SM codex, Land Raiders are not eligible for Dozer Blades, meaning that if you stick to those rules, you shouldn't be able to use the at all! And smoke launchers, heck, do you really want to waste a round of shooting just because you get a cover save you otherwise could get by moving three inches to the left? I'd say you don't need them launchers on AV14 Vehicles with weapons ranging acorss the board. They're better of just making the enemy tremble before their fire.

Why not ask your mates down at the club if it's okay that you use the new rules for Storm Shields (Because ours utterly suck, agreed) but stick to your old rules for everything else? That'd even give you hammers causing "no attack" instead of "I1" next turn!

That'd give you 20 points for both raiders. That's a Psychic Hood, or, if you'd like to, you could swap the BCs psycannon for an Incinerator, add another one to one of the Termies, and shove them all in a Raider on the way to Slaughterland. But then again, two Incinerators can cause so many casualties that your enemies might be out of reach on the next turn. A trick to solve this is to assualt the enemy unit in the back, where his heavy weapons usually are. He'll probably want to avoid to allocate wounds on them, since if they go, he doesn't have any duplicates to remove in other places.

Now, an Incinerator costs 20 points for the BC and 15 for another terminator, and since you'd have 5 left from the Extra Armour cost reduction, 1 from the BCs targeter and 10 from the swap of his weapon, you'd have 16 points left. Now, I'll recommend you to invest 10 of these in a Teleport Homer for one of your Justicars, which would be using the Space Marines rules for it (Since you no longer use templates in Deep Strike). This would allow you to Deep Strike your BC and ret. next to your Justicar, preferably when this have reached the enemies midst. Then, you'd be able burn, Burn, BURN your enemies. Think of it... Four Incinerators (Two in your PAGK units and two in your BC and ret.) supported by 15 Storm Bolters (One on your termie, and 7 in each PAGK squad) loosing all they got in the enemies midst. Think of what that would to to a unit of Imperial Guard! And thanks to your 'cinnies, Daemons and Eldar will tremble before you as well! The 6 remaining points, you'd have to invest where you seem fit, although I'd say a targeter and an auspex to each of your assault Justicars.

Now, this list is a better "kill force" than the one I suggested, and heck, I'll make sure I can use it as well, but remember that you'd have one less troops choice to claim objectives with. But if you're usually playing glorious slaughters, that doesn't really matter much. And hey, termies can still contest the objectives. You just have to make sure you can fall back and aid your Fire-Support Squad should the enemy close in upon them, but hey... If anything's fast moving, it's a land raider! Razz

Edit - Including an updated army list;
HQ
- Bc with Incinerator & Targeter (81)
RETINUE
- 4x Terminators (199) (1x normal, 1x Incinerator and 2x ss/th) (ss/th uses SM rules on shield so 3+ inv. save)

Troops
- PAGK Fire-Support Squad: (202)
Justicar with Auspex & Targeter (52)
4x PAGK with 2x Psycannons (150)

- PAGK Assault Squad: (244)
Justicar with Auspex, Frag Grenades, Melta Bombs & Targeter (59)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

- PAGK Assault Squad: (254)
Justicar with Teleport Homer, Auspex, Frag Grenades, Melta Bombs & Targeter (69)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

Heavy Support: (520)
- Land Rider with Dozer Blades and Extra Armour (260)
- Land Rider with Dozer Blades and Extra Armour (260)

Total
- 1500 Points


Last edited by Tiberius on Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:38 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Grimhack on Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:18 am

Oh ok, targetters can't be taken on terminator armour for some reason so your brother captain can't have it.
And for the rest, I'll have to go on about it later because now my mind is set on other things.

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Steel on Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:19 am

oooops , i've wrote Targeter while thinking Auspex and messed it up, soz Smile lol

sorry Tib, i haven't understude what do you mean when saying "Since you no longer use templates in Deep Strike" confused
As for the Dozer Blade on the Land Riders... it's true that the SM codex does not allow it, but on the other hand they are specific equipmenet for the Daemonhunters vehicles... just like "Blessed" or "Sacred Hull", so i don't think i'll have any problem for that.
For the smoke launchers, what do you mean with " you get a cover save you otherwise could get by moving three inches to the left" ?
Moving only makes a vehicle difficult to hit on close combat, am i right?
When the smoke also saves you from all the meltas that are around these days...

Converting the Bc & retinue to a nice assaulting unit is a good idea, but already our troops are designed for assault, i'd love to use some more supporting fire... but it's still a very good idea.
I don't like deepstriking too much, mostly because you are unsure at wich turn you'll be able to see your units...this really annoys me Evil or Very Mad
i'll see... there are some very nice ideas around and they could all work nice and well.

I need to pick a 3rd edition codex of the SM and check how was the Storm Shiled there at that time.
I need to see if our SS is just "our variant" or they was all like this, and same for all others things, like the hammers, the extra armour etc...
Because if something is different because it's our variant, then there is no way, i think i should use it like that.
On the other hand, if something is different because it's just old, i can ask to use the updated rules instead.

Another idea i had was to leave the incinerators from the normal squad aswell...there already are a hell lot of bolter shots going in the air when they exit a LR that having also a flames could really make too many casualities...and i can also save 20 points to put the psycannon to one of my termie.

and in the end, it's really TOO BAD i have no more points to fit in the psichic powers.
they are of great roleplay and i think they might turn out very useful... but 30 points are hard to find around here, expecially with the firing HQ eheh

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Tiberius on Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:01 pm

"Since you no longer use templates in Deep Strike"
This was before my time as well, but from what I have understood, you actually placed a template which you scattered, and the placed all your units under when you used Deep Strike before 4th ed. rules came out. Now you just place one model, scatter him, and place all models around him, although our Teleport Homer rules still speak about templates, rendering them useless if you use our rules as written.

Oh, and Dozer Blades aren't specific for Daemonhunter vehicles, they exist in the SM codex as well. But there, Land Raiders can't take them. Trust me, I got my SM codex here! Razz

What I mean with moving three inches to the left is, that there's usually some sort of terrain close to you which you can drive behind and still fire on the enemy. But then again, with the Power of the Machine Spirit, you can fire one weapon while smoking, so to say... Just remove the Auspexes and Targeters from the Assault Squads and you have your Smoke Launchers again.

And are you sure you'd like to put your close combat monsters (Even though there are more powerful close-combat units, our terminators does not excel as much at shooting as at close combat compared to our PAGKs, although both types of Knights are excellent at both areas) at the back of your force, just to fire another pair of Psycannons? Then you'd be better of with investing your retinue-points in another Fire-Support squad which can claim the objective.

Again, I'm an old SM player, and Storm Shields were the same in the SM codex of the same edition as our codex comes from. So, it's just plain old, the Storm Shield.

Removing your PAGK Incinerators is a possibility, altough I wouldn't do it, since it causes a lot of wounds on enemies compared to bolters at close range, even though it removes two NFW-attacks. A Storm Bolter has a 66% chance to cause two str 4 hits. Even though they can do this 24" away, an Incinerator, with an effective range of 1"-8" (Since you must distance yourself 1" away from enemy units) automatically inflicts as many str 5 hits as you can fit bases below that teardrop. Add to that an extra notch in armour penetration. That can cause loads of wounds.

And sure, holocaust and hammerhand can be nice. Holocaust can be really nice, but hammerhand isn't really useful against anything but vehicles, and trust me, your BC is better of fighting infantry. Your Godhammers can handle vehicles. But Holocaust can be amazing, but then you'd be better of forgetting psycannons on your terminators, because it is, and always will be, an Assault Spell.

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Steel on Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:21 pm

yep i pretty much agree with you in many points.

I don't think you can still fire one weapon while under the smokes...i read a topic somewhere in this forum where people discussed it and seems like the general consensus was that if you smoke, you just can't fire.
Because power of the machine spirit says that you can fire one more weapon then you were normally allowed by your speed, but smokers says that you can't shoot at all, or something like that... if i find the topic again i'll edit this post with the link maybe.
And anyway, yeah the smokes are useful when i move my LRs in "open air" to bring my PAGKs in the center of the action.

yes you're right about the terminators... i'll think deeply about it... expecially because if i remove the psycannons i can fit in the powerz!! lol Twisted Evil

Again, what do you mean "Add to that an extra notch in armour penetration" when speaking about the incinerators?
they can penetrate vehicles armor better? or you're refering to the negated invulnerable saves?

I think Hammerhand can be really nice in cc aswell, because it gives you +1 attack, since terminators don't get "true git" rule (i really can't understand this, it's plainly stupid...the normal troop are able to hanlde the stormbolter in close combat and terminators cannot, are weaker... but they can fire with Heavy weapons as they were still, what a nonsense!!!) and because S8 means instant death on most multi-wounds creature, provided they're not eternal warrior.
On a second note, it attacks with notmal initiative order, so if i equip my Bc with tunder hammer, i can use hammerhand if i need to strike first more then "incapacitating" the opponent.. just my toughts tho Smile

thanks once again for your help and time you've spent writing to me, it's nreally helpful Very Happy

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Tiberius on Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:56 pm

Well, the exact wording of the "Power of the Machine Spirit" is as follows;

A Land raider can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted

After that, there's only examples of when and how you can shoot. It never says that it's those situations alone that's eligible. And thus, since you can fire while shocked or stunned, you should be able to fire when smoked.

"The vehicle may not shoot until the end of its next player turn"
"The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers"

The meaning of both these quotes are the same, and means you are not permitted to fire any weapons. Thus, with a Raider, you can fire one weapon in both situations, which is one more than permitted.

"Add to that an extra notch in armour penetration", what I mean is, that Storm Bolters are AP 5, while Incinerators AP 4, thus an extra notch in armour penetration. Razz

Indeed, hammerhand gives you an extra attack, but remember that even though it doubles your strength and gives you an extra attack, it denies you your power weapons effect. Meaning they can take their saves. I'd say it's even less useful if you have a Thunder Hammer, since tehn you'd just be paying, and testing, for the initiative order and giving upp your armour-saves ignoring hits. It's still think twice before taking it. If you want to cause instant death, fire one of your land raiders against them! Razz

The reason for why terminators don't benefit from True git, I believe, is because GW didn't want to make the GK termies cost more than what they already did. Then we'd probably be paying 50 points each, at the least. Still, it's a little odd. But on the other hand, that means that they get extra attacks for charging. Very Happy

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

Post by Steel on Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:03 am

yes i see your point about the power of the machien spirit... unfortunatly i cannot find the topic i read again, because the "search" if not so good on this forum, but if i get it i'll remember to post it here.
I'm pretty sure most people agreed that with smokes you cannot fire at all...
I remember someone saying something like "because when you move it's a restriction on the numbers of weapons you can shoot, while smokes apply a condition negating any weapon, also those "defensive" like the extra-bolter, that would normally fire no matter how much you moved" or something like that...
Moving reduced the number of weapon you can fire but smokes deny you to fine whatsoever, it indeed seems another type of restriction...but again, if you consider the "crew stunned" result this seems different again.
oh well, i guess the discussion about this can go on for years, as rules are too ambiguous here to really favor one side or the other. scratch
I'll just ask my friends what they think about it.

Yeah now i see the point about hammerhand, i don't know why but i convinced myself it was still negating armour saves, eheh

I've read on many sites and posts, that the "best" tactica for us is to try and stay at range while firing to soften up enemy troops, since we're usually outnumbered, and then when they are thinned enough, assault them.
I was wondering if having no psycannons on the termin. and 1 less psycannon on the troop, since i used it also on the justicar, by mistake, will affect me so much... it indeed seems i have much less firepower, expecially at long range.
Should i then change my tactic a little?
should i head more into moving in close combat?
or still use my LRs to keep distance from the enemy when he draws near, an shoot with my bolters when i can?

thanks for all the help, i'm really new to this game (well i played chaos for 6 months when i was 12, like 10 years ago) and so i need to learn alot about the tactics and stuff.

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Re: My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

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