My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

I stand and salute all of you, fellow brothers of the Ordo!
I'm Brother Steel, newly deployed in the subsector Italy of this tainted planet.

Before starting my operations, i'd really appreciate the opinions of you, more seasoned warriors, about the strike force i've been able to recruit.
Actually it consist of:

- HQ "Caesar": (317)
Brother Captain "Romulus" with Master Crafted Psycannon & Auspex (108)
Retinue: 4x Terminators with 1 Psycannon (209)

- Squad "Aurelia": (307)
Justicar "Marcus" with Psycannon & Auspex (82)
7x PAGK with 2x Psycannons (225)

- Squad "Imperialis": (295)
Justicar "Augustus" (50)
9x PAGK with 2x Incinerators (245)

- Heavy Supports "Fists of the Emperor": (580)
Land Rider "Right Hand" and Land Rider "Left Hand"
both with Dozer Blade, Extra Armour, Hunter Killer Missile, Multi Melta, Smoke & Searchlight.

TOTAL: 1499

The usual Tactic is to use the HQ and the Psycannons Squad as a firing position, supported by one of the land riders if any of these squad have to move, and leave the 'cinnie squad inside the other LR that will carry them wherever the Emperor will need them.

Any suggestion is hearty welcomed.
The Auspexes and the extra armour are fill-ins (even if the extra armour is handy)

On a note, me and my playing group agreed that the GK codex is somewhat outdated, so i use the rules of the actual space Marines Codex for those things we have in common (like Extra Armour and Hunter Killer Missile for vehicles, or Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer etc. etc. )
Also, it's np if you suggest some changes that lead me to sightly pass the 1500 line... if i go 1505 noone says nothing.

Sorry for all the errors i commonly do in English and for the bit of "roleplay" i've put in this post, but was my 1st, wanted it to be funny at least.
So, i thank you all in advance for all the support and salute you once more

The Emperor Protects!
Steel

Well first off, the justicar can't take a psycannon and I can't remember a multi melta being a choice for normal land raiders in our, as you stated, outdated codex. But as you said you're using some rules of the space marine codex, it could be ofcourse from them.
Then some of my tips. At 1500 points I think 2 troops squads is maybe a bit too few. Personally I run 3 8-man squads, 2 with one incinerator to go in the landraiders and one with 2 psycannons for firesupport/ capturing the home objective.
Remember that 2 incinerators might have alot of potential, but you make your knights more expensive with a usually one use weapon, and sacrifice the nemesis force weapon and an attack.
I also like to use a terminator psycannon squad, but mostly because they can move and still fire at maximum range.

Hello Grimhack and thanks for your answer.
well, on the codex i read that for a normal troop 2 models can switch theyr weapons for a psycannon, and i did it. on the other hand, it says the justicar is allowed to take any equipment from the armory, and so i gave him another psycannon aswell, and i don't think it counts toward the max-2-psycannons stated above... please correct me if i'm wrong
i've also asked the other players of my group what they tought and they see it like me, so if you guys think this is wrong please tell me

Yes, the multi-melta is from the SM codex (i think also FW uses this rule but i haven't checked yet)

I actually have played a couple of matches this afternoon against a well hardened Space Marine army (damn Vulkan makes all the army really super strong!!)
and i can say i'm pretty satisfied the way GK works... the only thing i'm not really happy with is the Termin shooting squad indeed... they got pretty much halved down and killed almost nothing... any suggestion? how do you play them?

thanks for your inputs, as usual

Steel

Welcome to our sacred home Brother Steel; always good to have another incorruptible warrior

As for the list, it doesn't look bad so far. I suggest trying to run at least 3 7 man squads of Grey Knights after 1000 points. The 9 man squad with 2 Incinerators is overkill; chances are that the fire will cleanse most everything and the stormbolters will clean up, so you won't take advantage of their assault. A smaller squad of 7 with two incinerators would still be able to clean up mobs and will allow you to strengthen your other squads up.

The retinue looks good, psycannons are always satisfying as long as you remember to stay mobile with them and utilize both LR's to their maximum potential. They are great for assaulting, so don't just keep them at the back, as that's waaay too many points wasted for a squad that can pretty much slay ANYTHING. I suggest giving the Brother Captain the psyker power Hammer Hand, to take out vehicles/massive creatures and giving the Justicar's melta bombs to do the same, if their Str 6 can't do the dirty work.

I wish you success in your upcoming battles Brother Steel!

Well, you should look at the intro to the wargear section, and don't go like me and just wander to the things you can choose from before reading everything. It says that grey knights in power armour can't change their weapons (unless given in their entry). It has been discussed on this forum as well as others if you could give a psycannon to a justicar if you gave him artificier armour but I don't really agree with that.
Anyway, Nausaden said what I forgot to mention, if you use 2 incinerators you'll likely see that the charge distance gets enlarged too much, turning your target from certain death to a possible threat to your knights or just destroying it and leaving your knights stranded for incoming fire.
Don't forget that the fastest way to cross the battlefield is by charging.

Hello Brother Nausaden, and thank you for your kind answer!
i see your points here, and i'm actually modelling my list a bit, i'll maybe post the update here tomorrow after i'm done with my toughts.
In the few games i played i indeed saw that a 3rd squad would have been handy, but i saw many lists on this forum going for 2 squad as i did, more or less, so wanted to give it a try.
I wonder where i'll get the points tho... a 8-man squad (7 pagk and the justicar) is 225 points... wich means 675 points for 3 squads and not counting any upgrade... then i have 580 for the LRs with the blade,melta,extra armour and missile...
that means i have only 245 points for BC and retinue... wich means the BC and only 3 termies... and the only psycannon i have is on the BC and the squads have no 'cinnie or psycann. either... i don't know, i'm not so sure atm... even if i agree another squad might indeed be useful

Brother Grimhack, you are right, i forgot to read the last sentence, where it says PAGK can only take from the "equipment" list, and not from "weapons" ... damn it!!
But tbh i have not understude what it means "and they cannot use lesser items" .
Anyway, here it comes 30 points i can use elsewere...

Thanks both for your important inputs, keep them coming!
i'm going to study the situation a little more

the Emperor protects!
Steel

EDIT:
i don't know how the heck i did the dice roll under here... lolz

The member 'Steel' has done the following action : Dice rolls

'shooting' : 6

They say lesser weapons because they see their own weapons as holy.
Aside from that, I don't know if a missile on the landraider is really worth it. In the few games that I used it, it didn't do anything and in all the others where I didn't use it, I didn't miss it.
My point is, a landraider already has formidable anti tank power and if you're able to add a melta on it then it just gets better. So why would you need a weapon that's one shot only and isn't as good as your lascannons?
Dropping them gives you some points to play with aswell

mmm yeah you're quite right Grimhack...
i took the missiles because it means 2 free shots at turn-1 with unlimited range, so i can hit even what's out of range for my lasers...and basically because with my super-great luck on the rolls, my LRs usually pop 1 rhino in an entire battle and get killed at turn-2... probably i need to learn how to play them better, i actually used them as a fire base that stays fixed until it needs to move a troop when they get too close... but i usually do 1 or 2 moves with them, not more. Suggestions and tacticas on this are highly appreciated lol
20 points for 2 one-use weapons is a bit, you're right...expecially because they're not linked.
But i was thinking if it's the case to keep the missile and drop the Melta... it only shoots 24'' and really hurts at 12'' but in my picture, by the time they get 12'' from me i should have already destroyed theyr heavy stuff... what's your idea?

Just as a note, yesterday i've had my usual match against SM.
At turn-5 Vulkan and his 4-termies were close to my BC and retinue and i assaulted them.
Vulkan (I5) killed 2 of my termies. My BC and all of the remaining Terminator attacked Vulkan, and on 13 attacks saving on 3+ he saved ALL!!
then his termies attacked my term and wiped them out so sad lol
(and i have shot on Vulkan and his unit an enitire turn with my term. psycannons ans bolters...no wounds aswell)

I'm quite disappointed by the terminators tbh... they cost a huge chunk of points and i don't see them earn theyr money.
In shooting, they (at very best) shoot with 2 psycannons... Ok they can move and shoot-heavy that's a good point... but still, it's only 6 shots not linked or anything.
In melee they got wiped out causing NO wounds at all...saving at 5+ sucks
i don't know... i can't really see what's going on with them

Well, for the raiders, I personally keep them moving. With power of the machine spirit I can move them 6" and still fire two lascannons, even at different targets. You can also manoeuvre them so that they can blast at your target while the rest of the enemy army can't blast at your land raider (Or not as good anyway, it's waay too big to really hide).
Then the terminators, generally speaking, 3+ invulnerable saves are downright dirty. Doesn't matter how you look at it. But you have to target smart, if that vulkan was with ordinary terminators and not the dirty thunderhammer guys then you should've targetted the ordinary terminators because vulkan has already done damage. If your termies had killed some of the other termies then you would loose less yourself, maybe get a win out of combat resolution and maybe even forcing them to run.
Of course, it is still a dice game and luck has to be on your side but you can't go saying something is bad because in one battle they really sucked. Try a few games, maybe next time they'll wipe half of the enemies forces!
The reason why GK terminators are so strong (maybe not in your opinion but anyway...) is because they strike at initiative, with WS 5 and powerweapons at S6.

oki, thanks for the idea on the raiders. i'll try to use it paired with smart deploying

As for the terminators, yeah the WS 5 and S6 is really good but that's something also the normal troop of PAGK does... and the PAGK also get True Git, while the terminators doesn't, so they also have the very same attacks (ok, termie have 1 more in charge anyway) so the only thing the termin. have stronger then the normal troop is a (much) better armor save and the power weapons... i'm not sure it's enough no justify theyr price tbh.
Today i played also against an Ork army.
I destroyed his Battletank on 1st turn, and then i fired on his HQ (warboss with some other big boyz around) with the other LR, with the termie psycannons and with the PAGK psycannons... no wounds lol.
then they reached my termy in cc and my termin and Bc killed only 1 of his "retinue" before getting obliterated in 1 phase...
Probably it's just me not being very lucky with the rolls but i feel a bit "meh... " about this...

On the other hand, what do you do against such resilient opponents, like the Space Marines TH/SS terminators?
anyone can sugest me how to kill those beasts? they really are annoying beyond any limit...

EDIT:
maybe i have to just run away from enemy overpowered HQ and let my termin. destroy other normal/elite troops?

EDIT 2:
how much is worth the extra armour and the extra multi melta on the LR?
'cause 30 points for the armor and 20 for the meltas is quite alot for us...

On the raiders first, for the pure DH codex the extra armour is alot cheaper and definitely worth it.
What I do with really resilient troops, now taking a seer council on bikes as example, (8 guys 3+ save and 4+ invulnerable and their failed saves may be rerolled) what you do with those nasty critters is just throw everything at them at once. I destroyed them by throwing in a grandmaster with his last remaining terminator, a brother captain with 2 remaining terminators and 2 squads of 8 knights. Remember, if you force him to make a shitload of saves, he eventually fails enough of them.

Steel wrote:
EDIT 2:
how much is worth the extra armour and the extra multi melta on the LR?
'cause 30 points for the armor and 20 for the meltas is quite alot for us...

The extra armour, if taken from your own armoury, is worth ALOT on Land Raiders. You get to keep your mobility, and thanks to the "Power of the Machine Spirit" you can still fire one of the godhammers, even if the enemy scores a stun! The meltas on the other hand... Your vehicles are already packing TWO godhammers, and if moving, which they should be since enemy infantry and walkers might get annoying in cc at those distances, the Land Raider would have to discard the ability to fire with one godhammer for their Melta. And the Melta is neither twin-linked nor much more effective than the Lascannon before it gets within 12" of the enemy. And it's just not worth the points for the increase you see while there.

I'd say skip the melta and use the armour in our own codex. Goes from 50 to 10 points, which means an addition of a PAGK and some wargear, or, since you're only packing two scoring units, you could remove a terminator, or all the retinue (since you've said it yourself, they haven't been acting properly on the battlefield. Send them back for purgation and re-teaching at titan, and use them in later lists should you wish to) and add in some inquisitorial stormtroopers. And, you could pack them in a chimera and throw two meltaguns into the bunch, giving you some of the firepower you'd miss out on the Land Raiders. But hey, two godhammers aren't that bad either, nay?

So, you'd earn 40 points on using your own codex for extra armour and not using meltas on the Raiders.

Should you remove the whole terminator retinue as well, you'd be sitting on another 209 points, for a total of 249 points! That would, of course, make your BC a little lonely. But hey, spend 84 points of them and you got a Grand Master! 165 points left then. Let's use a 100 of those to add you a Justicar and two NFW-wielding PAGKs. What we'll do with these, is to form a new PAGK unit, with them and the two psycannon-wielding PAGKs. After that, we'll transfer an Incinerator-wielding knight to the 7-man squad, so that you have two eight-man teams have one each. This means you won't be burning your assaults to oblivion (Due to, as others have mentioned, the problem with actually causing so many casualties that you won't reach the enemy) and you got a long-ranged heavy-weapons platform to support your advancing knights as well as aid the stormtroopers should the enemy be closing in on them.

65 points left. First, all the Justicars should be fitted with targeters. These can be of extreme use, since you'd be able to measure the range to all the enemy units. This shows you not only who you can shoot at, but also who's posing the most danger towards you. Can those plasma-cannons reach? Will those assault marines be able to assault me next turn? Having the possibility to answer this for all your units can be crucial! never underestimate the use of a targeter, and heck, they only cost 1 point!

62 points left. Your two incinerator-wielding squads Justicars should have frag grenades as well, since they'll be doing the assaulting. 60 points left. I'm not sure how useful those auspexes would be, since many infiltrators are set up out of sight of the target. So I'd remove them. 64 points. Now that most of your equipments from your own codex, I'd say go all out and remove the hunter-killer missiles from the Land Raiders, giving you 10 more points per LR since you've counted them by the space marines codex. They aren't as useful as you might think. This means, though, that the Smoke Launchers and Searchlights have to be purchased from the armoury. But that's only four points each, and you can do without the lights. Remember that GK Land Raiders still have the "Power of the Machine Spirit" and "Assault Vehicle" rules as written in the Space Marines codex, according to our FAQ. And I just noticed I forgot to remove your Justicars illegitimate Psycannon earlier. Another 30 points! 108 points then. Oh, and your army only reached 1499 points, so there's one extra point there! 109 points. Now, that's enough for you to either choose to reinforce your forces with four grey knights, say one in each assault unit and two in the fire-support squad, or you could field a unit of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers which would give you another scoring unit which can hang around your objective, or, when mounted in a rhino or chimera, claim others. If you go for the mobile idea, you'd afford a rhino with extra armour and smoke launchers and five vanilla stormtroopers. Not much of a punch nor survivability, but if you can make sure the enemy focuses on your Land Raiders and PAGKs, they might actually be able to snatch an objective. Should you go with the sitting duck idea, t further reinforce your own objective, I'd suggest eight troopers, of which one is carrying a meltagun and one is carrying a flamer, so that they can lay down some fire upon transport vehicles and their passengers before these can get into an assault with your unit. The sitting ducks would cost 95 points, so you'd have 14 points left for other purchases. You could always reduce the number of stormtroopers, but these guys will die faster than your common Grey Knights, should they come under heavy fire.

Now now, what can we get you... How about Psycannon Bolts for your Fire-Support Justicar? It's as close as you can get to the Psycannon you gave him earlier. Oh, and let's return the auspexes to your Grand Master and the Psycannon squad, since I have no friggin' idea of what to do with the 4 points left!

- HQ
Grand Master "Romulus" with Auspex and Master Crafted Psycannon (192)

Troops
- Squad "Aurelia": (213)
Justicar "Marcus" with Auspex, Psycannon Bolts & Targeter (63)
4x PAGK with 2x Psycannons (150)

- Squad "Imperialis": (237)
Justicar "Augustus" with Frag Grenades & Targeter (52)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

- Squad "Somethingius": (237)
Justicar "Whatshisnameius" with Frag Grenades & Targeter (52)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

- IST Squad "Worn-out socks": (95)
8 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers w. 1 Meltagun and 1 Flamer (95)

- Heavy Supports "Fists of the Emperor": (526)
Land Rider "Right Hand" and Land Rider "Left Hand"
both with Dozer Blades, Extra Armour, Smoke Launchers

-Total: (1500)

And there you have it! Heck... I think this is what I'll stick to as well! Or, since I'm lacking a terminator with a Psycannon, I'll stick to a Grand Master with a normal bolter, and use the 45 points as well as the points from the auspexes and Psycannon Bolts to invest in a Rhino with Extra Amour and Smoke Launchers to increase the versatility of my ISTs, giving me a list like this;

- HQ
Grand Master (145)

Troops
- PAGK Fire-Support Squad: (202)
Justicar with Frag Grenades & Targeter (52)
4x PAGK with 2x Psycannons (150)

- PAGK Assault Squad: (237)
Justicar "Augustus" with Frag Grenades & Targeter (52)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

- PAGK Assault Squad: (237)
Justicar "Whatshisnameius" with Frag Grenades & Targeter (52)
7x PAGK with 1x Incinerators (185)

- IST Squad: (153)
8 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers w. 1 Meltagun and 1 Flamer (95)
Mounted in a Rhino with Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers (58)

- Heavy Supports "Fists of the Emperor": (526)
Land Rider "Right Hand" and Land Rider "Left Hand"
both with Dozer Blades, Extra Armour, Smoke Launchers

-Total: (1500)

And that's my two--- quadzillion cents. If anyone's managed to read through this wall of text, feel free to comment!

My personal add, I don't really use auspexes 'cause you don't really see alot of infiltrators in my local gaming store. What I do use on all my squads though is unguents of warding. This upgrade is just golden for the low point cost for it. After you fail a psychic hood test (remember to bring one, those nasty eldar can survive alot more if you don't stop things like fortune) you can still use a 4+ save against the effects of the psychic powers directed to the squad. So also remember that warlocks, who don't need to test for their psychic powers, still can't get around the 4+ save if they target your squad.

Hello Brother Tiberius, welcome and thanks for your very great inputs!!
some really good ideas there, nice one, thank you very much, and amazing work you did with all the point counts and stuff!!
I really appreciated it, thank you
I tryed the IST on my last game and well... they got obliterated before even shooting 1 bolt... ok, i was playing against Tau and they popped my rhino and focused-fire on the Ist...not much can survive it...but i'll test it again to see what they can do in a less "lucky" situation

About the Termin. retinue... i must admit i'm sad to loose them, as they are an "icon" of this game and of the "space-marine" oriented armies...but on the other hand i could have some very good improvements for the other squads.
I think i'll have to try it and see how do i feel, but 3 squads of nicely tailored PAGK are somewhat sweeeeet!

For the targeters...i have to admit i can't actually see theyr use, i'm pretty good at judging distances and most of the times, with our long-range weapons target is always in range... one thing it could be handy for is to understand if a near enemy troop can assault you next turn, but since you can use the Targeter only in the shooting phase, movement is already gone so... i'll keep them in mind if i have 2 points spare.

The psycannon bolts is another thing i actually can't understand... they just give AP4 to the bolter and negate inv. save... wich is useful only against limited troops...like some imperial guard or the tau's firewarriors...and the deamons ofc, but 10 points is a bit nasty for this low results

If i take the GM, should i leave him alone or i should attach him to a squad? and if so, wich one?
the shooting one to make use of his psycannon, or an assaulting one to make use of his uber cc abilityes?

Brother Grimhack, your helps are indeed valuable and i have to say thanks once more.
The unguents of warding are a nice addition, but i don't think i'll field a psychic hood... we already have a nice rule that negates the psikers on us...shouldn't it be just enough?

And about the changes on the LRs...it's true that taking everything from our codex makes me save some points there, wich is indeed good...but on the other hand means that i must use also the Storm Shield / Thunder Hammer from our codex, and this could be bad in the case i should try to keep the Retinue and take 1 or 2 termie with the cc combo to give them better resistance in melee...

On a note, is it worth it to take the Holocaust power for the termie and / or the Bc/Gm?
if the Bc/Gm wants to use holocaust and let's say it dies because of enemy higher Initiative... the power still goes on if i passed the test or it stops?
'cause if the psyker gets killed by the "perils of the warp" the power he was casting lands the same, so i was wondering...

Thank you all so much for your helps, they are of great use!

The Emperor Protects!
Steel