My 1500 pts. Army - beginner

I guess the debate for how PotMS affects smoke launchers will go on for an eternity or until GW posts it in their FAQs. : tongue: The best way, as you've already stated, would be to ask before battle, and if they go all "no, not at all, I don't want it to be so" throw in a few arguments of why you think it should be that way, and see if they counter them or agree with you, and just settle with that. Remember to check before every battle though.

Hammerhand would be truly awesome, if it ignored saves, so I see why you were so interested in it.

In many cases, that fits very well with how us GK should handle the enemy, thanks to our shrouding. But this is not the case against shooty armies such as the foul space communis--... Tau. Have you read the way of the water warrior? I too am pretty new to the newer version of the game (Or well, I haven't played for a couple of years, and when I did play, I was merely a small runt, not much older than you were in your heretic days. ), and had not encountered that tactica before, but trust me, that wall of text is among the greatest GK tactics I've ever read. It's a lil' outdated on a few points, but much of it stands true.

Link;
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?s=230dedab82f0b6a86f10070916c9b515&showtopic=101214&st=0

Trust me, it will be worth the time it takes to read.

not to backtrack, but i started reading this topic and something that popped out at me is that steels question about how well the normal aegis rules should protect us vs. a hood is never really answered, and I felt I could add something here.

There are a few major differences that gives the hood it's power. The first is that it can negate ANY power that a psychic test is taken for. The Aegis only effects ones cast directly on a GK unit, not vehicles or the ground or buffs to enemy units.

The next point is that most reg GK are ld 9. Since many enemy psykers are LD 10, and you have to roll HIGHER to negate it, this means you have to roll 2 higher then they do, a tall order. a psychic hood on a LD 10 model means everyone can use the LD 10 to negate psychic powers, knocking what you need to only 1 higher then the opponent, much more do-able on a d6.

The third point is not a game mechanic, but a psychological one. Most oppnents aren't really familiar with the aegis so forget about it, but most opponents know what a "Psychic hood with no range" is, and they will be more scared of it, which you may or may not be able to use to your advantage.

The psychic hood is definitely a good investment versus pskyer heavy or non targeting pskyer lists, probably is a good one against most others, but is wasted points against tau, alot of orc and IG, and other no psyker armies. It's usually not seen as a bad choice, and some people swear by it, but it's not a "must take" in most situations.

If you definitely know your facing psykers, the unguents basically give you FNP versus psychic powers, which is fantastic for 10 points, but are a less seen choice due to the fact they only effect one squad each and only affect targeted psykers, plus we already get the aegis save.

Hello and sorry for late reply, i've been away for the weekend

woot Tib, thanks alot for that link!
While reading other Tactica topics, i've came across sentences like "as a water based army..." etc. and never understude what it meant!
it's great you linked it to me!
i'll surely read it when i have some minutes spare (damn studying takes alot of time meh)
And yeah, hammerhand was really juicy for 10 points a nice S8 attack ignoring saves and using normal initiative eheheh

hello brother MJSwasey!
and thanks for your help here!
your explanation was crystal clear, now i see the way of the jedi
thank you very much!
Unfortunatly my playing group have decided to make "1 list for everything", each of us must use 1 and only 1 list that have to fulfill every role.
We decided this to negate the possibility of creating specific "anti-you" army.
While i think this surely spice up the game of creating and manouvering your army, it's as well true it makes me some difficulties to be prepared against all events...and in 5ed. psykers are still common?
As of now, i've never found someone using a psychic power against me...well probably only 1 SM librarian, and his S10, AP1 large blast was right on his head because of double 1 result ( LOL )
one of my mates plays eldar, so i think he'll use some powers, but others are Orks, SM, Tau, Tyranids, Chaos Daemons, SM Chaos, Sisters, Imperial Guard & space wolves... any chance of having some psychic powers there? i still don't know all the armys wery well, but i learn fast


Another idea that i got this weekend is to remove the 5xPAGK squad with 2x Psycannon (the fire-support squad) and switch 1 LR into a LRC to balance the lost firepower of the squad, and then with the points i saved from the squad (200 of the squad - 5 of the LRC = 195 points) i can fit in a Dread. with TLLC and Missiles, and still have some points (55 if i remember correctly) to improve something else.
What do you think?
Main advantage is that i increase the firepower, as the LRC can shoot with all weapons even if it moves, while the squad cannot, and the LRC is more resilient then a 5-man squad... on the other hand i have 1 less squad that can score/keep objectives and the Dreadnought is less-resilient then a LR and have a little less power against vehicles or heavy stuff...

What's your ideas?

as usual,i thank you all for your great support!
Steel

edited: zpellingz

I'd say it would work with removing your fire-support and swapping a LR to a LRC, as well as adding a dread. Just remember that you would loose a Lascannon. Still, you'd gain a couple of hurricane bolters and a tl assault cannon . Remember that you would loose a scoring unit as well.

But, you seem to have understood this already. I'd say try it, and see which option you prefer!

Onwards to the psychic point. Sisters of Battle, Space Wolves, Chaos SMs, Imperial Guard, SMs and Chaos Daemons (At least I think daemons use psychic powers, would be odd otherwise O.o) all have the availability to include psykers, and I'd say you should grab a hood.

For Eldar psychic powers are generally huge, most Daemon powers don't actually count as Psychic powers however.

I thought it could be like that. I mean, why would the daemons of the warp rely on warp-magic? Wouldn't make any sense! ... <.<

rofl

Well, sisters can have psykers but pure sister armies generally won't have psykers. But all the others indeed use psychic powers but, because eldar warlocks don't need to roll for their psychic powers, a hood doesn't work against them (cheap bastards).

I think 1 list for everybody is great! I also play Tau, an army that can really gear up if they know they're facing a specific opponent, so i think it's more fair and fun to have " all comer" lists.

As to the amount of psykers you'll see, it depends on your playgroup. A lot of armies can take psychic powers, some people don't and some do, so it's really pretty random
IG: i've found more people that don't use psykers, but some always run one, and sometimes a psychic battle squad with one of OUR assassins for a really nasty template combo.
Eldar: will pretty much always be rolling some type of die, even if some models are automatic.
Space wolves: have pretty good powers you may want to negate.
SM: like their large ap1 blast template that can devistate us, and also love to gate away from danger or towards weak units.
Tau: don't even know what a psyker is
Tyranids: they have some powers that they don't roll for and some they do, so make sure to take note Also they're getting a new codex soon so may change.
Orks psykers are pretty rare, but often can do random things that may or may not be powerful.
CSMOne or two good chaos marine lists are psyker heavy (i believe thousands suns and a few others).

Generally it really just depends on the player!

i also play tau and agree with you there, i also play a chaos marine army i do use a sorcerer and i usually gear him up at around 150 ish points mind i only use him in 2k battles pssibly 1500

Warlocks don't take psychic tests, however..... a Farseer does and has by far the most deadly and game breaking abilities, if anyone relies on their farseer (and most eldar do) you can really find the difference between a total victory and a massive defeat is a single round when you stop a power from working.

ok great infos here.
can't i really use the Hood against a warlock?
I saw that on the Hood description it says "after your opponent passed the psychic test but before he uses the power bla bla bla" but also the last sentence is "you can use the hood every time someone uses a psychic power"... so in my mind, if a warlock (for example) doesn't need to take the psychic test, i assume as he automatically passed it, and so i can use the Hood right before he uses the power, just as if he passed the test normally...because he actually is using a power.
I understand my point of view is probably wrong, but wanted to state it out since this situation is a bit unclear for me.

Tib, i've read the link you posted, it's very great!
many good ideas there, thank you very much!
but after reading it, i started to think that to play water-based correctly you also need good movement ability, in order to redeploy and stay out of LOS more effectively, so i was wondering if it's better to have 1 LR for every squad... and since i have 2 PAGK and 1 HQ squad, that would mean 3 LRs...
I know some of you suggested to play at least 3-scoring units (PAGK) in a 1500 match, but doing so i would have 3 PAGK + 1 HQ squad and only 2 LRs... seems a little "stuck in place", isn't it?
expecially thinking that the on-foot squads are a 5-man PAGK and the 5-Termi OR 8 PAGK seems a little vulnerable?

with these toughts in mind, i tryed to make a list with 2 LR, and it could be something like that:

-HQ:
BC + 4x Termi (2x termies with ss/th) (255)

- Squad 1:
7x PAGK + Justicar with Frag & Meltas, 1x Incinerator (241)

- Squad 2:
same as above (241)

- LR 1:
normal LR with Dozer Blade (255)

- LR 2:
same as above (255)

- LR 3:
LRCrusader with Dozer Blade (260)

TOTAL: 1507

I'm a little high on the points, i can either remove 1 Dozer Blade from one of the standard LR or maybe turn the LRC into a normal one, but i liked the idea of a crusader to have a good firing support when launching an assault somewhere... mainly because i've noticed that in most games, by turn 3 or 4 there are no more heavy vehichles or stuff on the enemy side i can effectively use the Lascannons against, so some anti-troop firepower would be nice by that time... and the LRC seems also good to support my Termies on the assault.
The weak part is no Extra Armor on the tanks, no psycannons, no psychic powers...

Oh and i got another "weird" list in my mind yesterday, pretty much similar to the one posted above, but with 2 LRs and a dread, i'll post it here in case someone wants to have a look:

-HQ:
BC with psycannon + 4x Termi (2x termies with ss/th, 1x psycannon) (300)

- Squad 1:
7x PAGK + Justicar with Frag & Meltas, 1x Incinerator (241)

- Squad 2:
same as above (241)

- LR 1:
normal LR with Dozer Blade & Extra Armour (270)

- LR 2:
same as above (270)

- Dread :
Dread. with Incinerator and TLLC , mounter in a Drop Pod (180)

TOTAL: 1502

The idea here is to mount the PAGK in the LRs, keep the termies shooting and slow-moving if necessary and have the Dead strike in the middle of the battle where needed, take some shots at rear armour vehicles or burn out an objective...
it doesn't sound so bad imo


Discuss,discuss,discuss

first i would say : stick to our codex : you can't pick a little her and a little there, cause if so you'll have some trouble with some opponents, and our rules, though outdated, are not so bad at all
I love the LRC but i understand your point, and for the dozer blade... i never saw them on a LR but i think that you can take every option of the vehicle gear so ... ??
lets see in the codex
note 1 : i love the GM cause the BC is very fragile, but i understand the problem of points , but really the GM is very stronger than the BC, so ...
note 2 : i saw somewhere above that you drop the psycannon for letting the possibility to your HQ to fight in CC but the psycannon is an Assault weapon you can do both
Aubec

Remember, the best tactic with Grey Knights are to remain far away, as far away as weapon range allows, to get the most out of shrouding, while forcing your enemy to advance. The Grey Knights are a shooty army with awesome counter-assault abilities. When the enemy reach you, they will be withered down by bolter and psycannon, and if your knights are positioned in cover, which they should be, your enemy will also have to give up initiative to charge you. A Grey Knights army should constantly fall back (Not due to morale tests, but to move back willingly. All our weapons are assault such anyway) to wither down the enemies assault troops.

Oh, and to use a drop pod, you need to have a HQ choice and two Troop choices from Codex: Space Marines. Allied Space Marines are not allowed to be used if Grey Knights are part of the force, and thus, it must be the knights who are allied to the marines.

To end it all, I say, stick to two raiders. You want three troop choices, because one must be able to claim your objective, while the others grab the enemies. And you should not try to assault the enemy if avoidable. Remember that you can always opt to deep strike your termies, meaning you can get them where you want them early, while your two assault squads advance.

Oh, and use your own Codex, just ditch the Space Marines one! >.< You'll save 20 points.

being mobile doesn't mean every squad has to be mounted. a squad can sit on objectives or move around in the middle, and gets more shots that way

well to make it clear, it's not totally my own decision to use some of the SM codex rules.
Me and my mates had a talk and we all decided that i'll use the normal SM rules for those things we have in common, like the Storm Shields rules, the point cost for Extra Armour, the possibility to use Multi-Melta on LRs, and also the use of Drop Pods for Dreads.
My group also use the program "Army Builder" as a reference, and it uses the updated SM rules for the things i mentioned above in my army.

Aubec, thanks for reminding me i can use Psycannons also as assault weapon, sometimes i see them only as heavy
But anyway i removed them from the 3-LRs list because i had no more points left

As for the moving squads...having a running squad with no vehicle is ok for objective keep-and-control, but on the "kill 'em all" (don't remember english name) matches it's just a free point to the enemy...expecially when the squad is composed of 5 PAGK only!
If every squad could use a transport, then it's a nice tactic to stay at weapon range & shoot, and when the enemy gets closer, you embark and move 12" away... but if you're footed and you stay 24" from the enemy to shoot with the bolter, in 2 turns you're assaulted from an enemy squad with transport, no matter how you move backwards...

I think, all in all, all of you gave me some very great ideas here, but an army list also have to fit the player's own playstyle, and i think it's the time i have to find my own
I feel my list lies somewhere between the last 3 i posted, i'll have some testing maybe and see how they perform.

Yesterday i got a nice match against an Ork army.
He had 3x 30xOrks squad with Nob, a Tank-Hunter squad with 10 missiles mounted on a battle wagon and the Warboxx with 10 knob & pain-boy on another Battle wagon.
My list was the 2 Lr, 2x 8-PAGK squads, 1 5-PAGK squad with psycannons and the BC with 4 termies.
I tryed to stay at top range, having the psycannon-PAGKs inside a building shooting and the termin. on foot, since they could have handled a charge better then a normal pagk squad.
I won 5-3, not bad. he killed the 5-man and one of the 8-man squad and my termies, i popped both his battle wagons, the tank-hunters squad and 2 of the 30-orks squad.

In the next days i'll see how the other lists go aswell

meanwhile, i thank you all for your great support and infos (and patience i guess )

The Emperor Protects!
Steel

Glad to hear you managed to give those walking vegetables a beating! by the way, Annihilation is the mission type with killpoints. And you're right, a 5-man squad is vulnerable in Annihilation. But if you play a random mission (aka Dice Roll) you'd be sitting with one scoring unit less if you chose not to include it. You could always move your kngihts around so all your squads are at 7 men in strength, or even larger if you can spare the points. You could choose to exclude the psycannons and get 2 extra knights though.

In annihilation you could also use the 5 man squad as support and if they get wittled down to 3 or lower then you can put them in a landraider. They won't do anything else but you don't lose their killpoint. Untill ofcourse your raider gets destroyed and he just finishes the last guy of.