Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

No worries there Brother, hope everything turns out well for you

And I agree that some of the "weaknesses" are intentional to offset certain "strengths", w/c makes for unrealistic or broken fluff sometimes...

I don't know why the gm should have iron will instead of fearless.

He will still take wounds if he chooses to automatically succeed with his test.

I think they should merge both the daemonhunter and witch hunter codices together (to become Codex: Inquisition or something), because on their own, both of them have an incredibly limited selection of units and a huge amount of cross over (i.e. inquisitors, deathcult, stormtroopers, assassins etc). To balance it out, remove the allies options.

From that, a massive decrease in the cost of weapons (DH and SoB) upgrades is needed (psycannon at 30pts wtf? more valuble than a GK?), aligning the vehicle cost and abilities with C:SM, updating psychic powers and refining abilites of both GK and SoB so that half of them are not worthless or unbalanced (daemons without number).

@Primarch:

Why combine both codex together? Daemonhunters needs updating, upon that we can all agree. Witch-hunters, sure they may be a bit old, and some of the rules need updating, but at least they have the model support; Seraphim, Battle Sisters, Repentia, Arco-flagellents, Cannoness, Penitent Engines, Immolators, Exorcists. Thats more than Daemonhunters have.

I'm sorry if I come across a little harsh, but I really don't want to see these codex combined. I play both, and enjoy the fact that they are seperate.


*EDIT*

Just as a follow up, does anyone actually know of a contact email that could be used to send a copy of this re-write to?

Hmmmm.

Actually no.

Try gw moepage and search for "Contact us" and try to find something fitting, although it might be a bit of a guess if they would even read it.

I'd guess gw gets LOADS of stuff, hatemail, wishlists, perhaps a few good jobs and of course, army lists.

But you should try, after all, what do you have to loose?

Snowfire wrote: ... I'm sorry if I come across a little harsh, but I really don't want to see these codex combined. I play both, and enjoy the fact that they are seperate.

Not at all, its always important to hear various points of view. Indeed after thinking about it more, from a lore perspective it makes sense to keep both armies seperate as the Ordo Maelleus and Ordo Hereticus are two different armies (more so than SM chapters). However I still think that the allies system should be modified.

I feel that SM and IG should not be able to access DH or WH as allies in an army because the inquisition commands the resources of the Imperium, not the other way around and SM and IG are already provided with a large variety of unit selection. DH and WH should still be to induct SM and IG, which stays in line with 40k lore. Whilst DH and WH should be able to function as allies (like in the Codex - i.e. 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 2 Troops, 1 Fast Attack), but with access to a single heavy support slot (making up for the fact that DH only have access to overpriced GK devastators, LR and dreadnought, whilst WH have no heavy tanks to field).

HEY!!!

You forgot orbital strike!

............................

Well it isn't that interesting anyway.

I agree, the broken imperial guard and space marines don't need the fine soldiers of the inquisition, they don't deserve them.

But Inquisitors have utmost power and should be able to call upon other factions for their aid.
Ie, leave allies as it is, but outsiders can't ally us.
But we can ally them.

And DH & WH should be different codexes. Perhaps add a few Ordo xenos options to codex WH.

People who play pure GK's or pure Sisters would like to see codices that expand the options to make their armies more viable. I think that combining the two would limit those options way too much. Even more so than it is now.

Someone brought up the subject of one large codex containing GKs, Sisters, Xenos Hunters, Inquisitors of all types and I'm pretty sure the response from GWS was a big no for many varying reasons.
It put alot of peoples minds at rest at the time, since alot of rumours where circulating at the time that, that was the direction they where going!

I wouldn't like to see it happen, since generally what happens in those cases is one true choice is made feasible by GWS and all over army variants of the list just suck. Its pretty common now that they balance all codex around a single army setup thats the newest most powerful thing, and in such a diverse set of armies I think it would kill all but a very specific collecters enjoyment.
I have heard that Sisters (WH) need a update though (their points cost like ours in some areas are a bit outdated)

This has probably been stated before, but our True Grit ability should be extended to assaults. The fact that every elite trooper gets 3A in an assault (at usually less points) says something disproportionate is going on for GKs (and it justifies a Justicar being 50 POINTS!! actually it still doesnt)

Just doing that alone would justify the 25 pts cost of GK

Another thought that I probably said before, is that we really need heavy infantry units that have proper AT weapons (meltabombs and psycannons don't count) I already posted this

EDIT: a few corrections

Yes but thats it, the GK may be an elite warrior, but in the end he is just a troop. The true grit ability gives extra flexibility, but I'd rather see something like furious assault, than a bonus attack on the charge. I can't see us getting a charging attack and true grit.
Nothing except a lascannon with his NFW would justify the Justicars cost. Or a free psycannon.
Also assuming combat lasts more than a round, true grit is alot lot lot better than everyone elses attack on the charge.

The anti tank weapon arguement is a bit of a moot point, you either complain about it or accept its part of the army. I can't see it changing and wouldn't really want it too. There are ways to play around it if you really feel its necessary

For 25 pts even though a grey knight is in the troops catagory he is practically an elite unit. In any other army (chaos, eldar, SM) troops including squad leaders have two base attacks. Many of these units are less than 25 points and some of them have power weapons.

At 25 pts I think we are being screwed over for not having 2 base attacks, extending true grit to assaults gives us that, but also balances our units using two handed weapons (who won't get true grit).

At that points cost it is incredibly difficult to field full squads of grey knights without skimping on other parts of the army.

My concern of our lack of AT infantry is because our only proper AT units are LR and DK. Thats why I feel that the allies rule should be modified to be mutual between WH and DH but excludes IG and SM, and a heavy support slot gets added.

That aside, what does furious charge do?

True Grit will be most likely be gone when our new codex comes out. We can't complain too much about GK's not having heavy a/t tank weapons as there are other options like IST and melta guns. We just limit ourselves to half a codex when we play pure GK. What we need though is heavier, longer a/t options for IST's.

Furious Charge gives you +1 Strength and Initiative on the charge.

Sorry I did an edit just before you posted.

I don't think that stormtroopers should get the long range heavy weapons. My reason is that stormtroopers are normal humans, and when humans (i.e. IG) are using heavy weapons its as a weapon team. I think the purgation squad should have an extended armoury that provides lascannons, missile launchers and multimeltas.

EDIT: When you talk about furious charge, would that extend to all GK or just PAGK?

Furious charge and true grit (in assault) both seem about equal to me. Furious charge gives very good bonuses if we perform a single charge and true grit is favourable against I6 units or extended combat.

Now that you've defined what FC does I'm at odds of which one to support

Okay I've thought about it some more and I agree, furious charge is better suited for GK than an extra attack. As we have low troop counts we cannot afford to lose troops from an extended assault, so the 1+ initiative makes our units capable of taking on most HQ units and eliminating troops before they can attack. ST7 attacks only makes sense when assaulting REALLY high T opponents, eg carnifex

Yea we wouldn't see a huge benefit from the str, but it would be noticeable without being too overpowered, and the initative would help, personally I'd love a slight increase in assault distance, but I get the feeling it would be too much to ask

Just for something new, I emailed Mkerr from Chainfist.com and BOLS a copy of the last edited version of our re-write of the codex to see what his opinion is. Should be interesting

Could someone post a link to that rewrited codex? I looked through this topic swiftly, but couldn´t find anything like a summary. And read all these pages would be for ages.

good idea brother Belarus
Aubec

I agree with Brother Belarus as well. And good work Snowfire; I'd love to hear what Mkerr has to say.

Belarus wrote:Could someone post a link to that rewrited codex? I looked through this topic swiftly, but couldn´t find anything like a summary. And read all these pages would be for ages.

http://www.mediafire.com/?i3ytmzzmnim

Thats the latest version. Hasn't been touched for a while though, still waiting for Mkerr's notes.

thanks
Aubec

There's a typo in the purgation squad, it says up to 45 grey knights can replace... I reckon it must be up to 4?

I have just read the document and I have a few suggestions.

I like the HQ and the way Inquisitors can be upgraded. Elites are good as well.

The price for PAGK is too low. I would leave it 25 per model. Especially because you have upgraded Shrouding. Just imagine: +2 Strenght, Storm Bolters, True Grit and Shrouding for 4 points(okay, we don´t have frag grenades, but anyway)?! That´s just RIDICULOUS! And PAGK in Chimeras are really WEIRD. It´s supposed to be a transport for humans, not marines. I don´t like the idea of PAGK in Rhinos either, but it´s far more consumable than Chimeras. The best way would be IMHO Drop Pods. Drop Pods suits the fluff and nature of PAGK.

Fast Attack: Has anyone thought about GK Landspeeders? Armed with TL Psycannons, Incinerator or MultiMeltas? It could work well, they offer us a good AT we lack and in addition it can be used as our scouts with Locator Beacons that are iniciating the GK attack.
What do you think?

Assault PAGK are a little bit useless. In fluff they are the most hardened bretherns that are sent into the heart of battle in a right moment. I suppose that they could be something as Vanguards in Daemonhunters force. Entering to the play via Deep Strike (teleport) and being able to assault the same turn they arrive. 30 pts per model maybe?

What next... oh definitely increasing the point value of Chimera to 55 points exactly as in the IA and IG Codex.

And do I see 1(!!!) attack in Dreds profile? Ehm..

I think the reason why grey knights are lowered in price is because they die as easy as normal marines and because 25 points +50 for the justicar is ridiculous.
I agree on the chimera being weird as a standard though but chimera's are capable of carrying ogryns, why wouldn't they be able to carry marines?
GK landspeeders would just be included because land speeders can be so awesome and you just want them I guess. Really, you can do without them!