Terminators discussion

With the advent of the new Dark Angels codex and its (frankly overpowered) Deathwing the question I have is:

Are Grey Knight Terminators now second best?

Well our terminators are troops... Regardless of the HQ. however we can't take storm shields... But we have NFW... Mainly speaking, halberds. And storm bolters. But yeah. I'd say we're second best.

I've been thinking about even Paladins vs Deathknights in CC and every time (Unless accompanied by a model that gives them psychotroke grenades) the paladins will either fail or just be locked in a grinding cycle of mutual annihilation!!



Things in GK terminators' favour (not incl paladins)

Cheaper (200 points compared to 225 or 235 for deathwing or deathknights)

Aegis as standard

NFW (go hammers!)

Hammerhand

Thawn (not sure on him but he's an idea for an upgrade)

NEMESIS WARDING STAVE!!!!



Things not in GK terminators favour:

Storm Shields

Deathknights get a single strike at Str 10 Ap2 once in a combat.

STORM SHIELDS

Precision Strikes.

Deathwing can still take a damned Cyclone Missile Launcher AND SS and TH.

I'd say they both are up there. GKT are more like ordinary Termies so perhaps these guys are inferior to Deathwing knights, but then again ours are troops choices and the others are elites choices, so a fair comparison should be between paladins and DWK.

But I can't comment on DWK since I didn't pick up my copy of the DA codex. Perhaps if someone can enlighten us on what their stats are, weapon choices and special rules so we can make a good comparison between these two units?

Deathwing are like normal terminators except they can take a Cyclone AND Th/SS

their stats are:

DEATHWING COMMAND SQUAD 2 2 0 Points
For each HQ choice in your army equipped with Terminator armour (including Belial, but not other Deathwing,. Command
Squads) you may include a Deathwing Command Squad. These selections do not use up a Force Organisation lot.
Death wing Terminator
Death wing Apothecary
Deathwing Champion
Wargear:
• Terminator armour
• Storm bolter
• Power fist
Special Rules:
• Death wing Assault
• Inner Circle
• Split Fire
• Split Fire
• Vengeful Strike
WS BS s T w A Ld Sv Unit Type Unit Composition Page
4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 2+ Infantry 5 Deathwing Terminato -!5
4 4 4 4 4 2 9 2+ Infantry ( Character)
5 4 4 4 4 2 9 2+ Infantry ( Character)
Options:
• One Deathwing Terminator may take a banner
from the following list:
- Death wing Company Banner* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45 pts
- Revered Standard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 pts
- Alternatively, they may take a banner from the
Sacred Standards section of the wargear list.
• One Deathwing Terminator may be
upgraded to the Deathwing Champion,
upgraded to the Ueathwing Champion,
replacing all of their weapons with the
Halberd of Caliban . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 pts
• One Death wing Terminator may be upgraded
to a Deathwing Apothecary, replacing their
power fist with a narthecium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .30 pts
* One per army
• One Death wing Terminator may choose one of
the following options:
o take a cyclone missile launcher. ................... 2�� pts
o replace his storm bolter with:
�� a heavy flamer . .. . .. .. . . . . . . . . ... ..... ... . . . ... .... ...... . . 1 0 pts
�� a plasma cannon .... ..... ................................ 15 pts
�� an assault cannon . . .. . . . . . . .. ....... ..................... 20 pts
• Any Deathwing Terminator rna,· replace
• Any Ueathwmg ·lermmator rna,· replace
all of his weapons with:
�� a pair of lightning cia" ................... ................. .free
�� a thunder hammer and tonn shield ... 5 pts/model
• Any model may replace his p<n,-er fist
with a chainfist. . . . . .. . ... . ............ ........ ... . . .. . . 5 pts/rnodel
• The unit rna ' eleCL a Land Raider of any type
as a Dedicated Tran pon pg 10-!). This vehicle
must be given the Death,,in '\'ehicle upgrade at
additional co L

Deathwing (normal)

...
.. 1
ELITES
-
DEATHWING TERMINATOR SQUAD 220 Points
Deathwing Terminator
Deathwing Term Sgt.
Wargear:
• Terminator armour
• Storm bolter
• Power fist (Deathwing
Terminator only)
• Power sword
(Deathwing Term
Sergeant only)
WS BS s T w I
4 4 4 4 4
4 4 4 4 4
Special Rules:
• Deathwing Assault
• Inner Circle
• Split Fire
• Vengeful Strike
DEATHWING KNIGHTS
Deathwing Knight
Knight Master
Wargear:
• Terminator armour
• Flail of the U nforgiven
(Knight Master only)
• Mace of absolution
(Deathwing Knight
only)
• Storm shield
DREADNOUGHT
Dreadnought
Venerable Dreadnought
Wargear:
• Power fist with built-in
storm bolter
• Multi-melta
• Searchlight
• Smoke launchers
WS BS s T w I
5 4 4 4 1 4
5 4 4 4 1 4
Special Rules:
• Deathwing Assault
• Fortress of Shields
• Hammer of Wrath
• Inner Circle
• You Cannot Hide
WS BS S
4 4 6
5 5 6
lArmour!
F S R
1 2 1 2 1 0
1 2 1 2 1 0
Special Rules:
• Death wing Vehicle
(Venerable
Dreadnought only)
A
2
2
Ld Sv
9 2+
9 2+
Options:
Unit Type
Infantry
Infantry ( Character)
Unit Composition Page
4 Deathwing Terminators 44
1 Deathwing Terminator Sergeant
• May include up to five additional Deathwing Terminators . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 44 pts/nwdel
• Any model can replace all of his weapons with :
- Pair of lightning claws . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . free
- Thunder hammer and storm shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 pts/model
• Any model can replace his power fist with a chainfist . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 pts/model
• For every five models in the squad, one Death wing Terminator
may choose one of the following options:
- Replace his storm bolter with a heavy flamer . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ] 0 pts/model
- Replace his storm bolter with a plasma cannon .. . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 fJts/model
- Replace his storm bolter with an assault cannon . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . 20 pts/model
- Take a cyclone missile launcher . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 pts/model
• Deathwing Terminator Squads may select a Land Raider of any
type as a Dedicated Transport (pg 1 04) . This vehicle must be given
the Deathwing Vehicle upgrade at additional cost.
--
235 Points
A Ld Sv Unit Type Unit Composition Page
2
3
9 2+ Infantry 4 Deathwing Knights 45
9 2+ Infantry (Character) 1 Knight Master
Options:
• May include up to five additional Deathwing Knights . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 46 pts/1nodel
• May take a Perfidious Relic of the Unforgiven (pg 64) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . .. . . .. 1 0 pts
• Deathwing Knights may select a Land Raider of any type as a
Dedicated Transport (pg 1 04) . This vehicle must be given the
Deathwing Vehicle upgrade at additional cost.
'*
1

Errr, a little too much info, we don't want to get into trouble with GW about this... but thanks anyway brother!

The mace of absolution is an AP2 weapon or AP4?

normally it's AP4, but once every combat round the knights can choose to make a single attack at Str 10 AP2.

MACE OF ABSOLUTION
Bespiked, glowing with power and emanating an eerie mist
from their vents, these ominous weapons are employed by the
Death wing Knights in their endless hunt for the Fallen. In the
presence of the most accursed heretics, their power is amplified
to awe-inspiring magnitude.
Range s AP Type
normal +2 4 Melee,
Bane of the Traitor,
Concussive
Smite mode +6 2 Melee,
Bane of the Traitor,
Concussive,
One use only*
* All models in the unit must use their Mace of Absolution 's
smite setting at the same time.

So looking at the info, I think Paladins have an edge here. The SB could help reduce the DWK numbers before the onslaught. 10 shots could generate one wound and that means a dead DWK.

In the assault phase, DWK could kill 2 Paladins @I10, but will struggle to kill the rest with AP4 weapons. Their main strength being the 3++ of the SS. Take also into account that they only have WS4 so they'll be hitting Palis on 4+, not so easy to generate enough wounds. Palis on the other hand will be landing more hits and wounds due to WS5 and Hammerhand (when attacking with Halberds or swords) and more if attacking with hammers.

If equipped with Warding Staves, then the Palis will be more durable and the assault will turn into a battle of attrition, where he Palis have more chance of winning in time (2 wounds, and 2++).

I'd also add that if adding a special character the Paladins have the edge, since you can turn the Paladins into an invincible unit (*cough* Brotherhood Champion *cough*).

Does this sound right?

I think so.

A Nemesis Warding stave could certainly help when that S10 AP2 attack comes.

Hammerhand and Daemonhammers would mean 2+ killing time.

Not sure a Brotherhood Champion would necessarily make the Paladins an invincible unit.

Now, a Brotherhood Captain with psychotroke Grenades and a second Nemesis Warding Stave?? That would.

Since none of us have admin rights, may I suggest for Brother Corennus to edit his own posts and remove the point costs for the wargear etc? Donfer is right, we don't want to have potential legal trouble w/ GW.

Now, on topic...good discussion

Equipped appropriately (like 1 warding stave and 1 banner), I think the pallies have the edge due to more attacks. The warding stave can potentially weather the once/game attack of S10 AP2. After that, the number of attacks coupled with better "to hit" and "to wound" (w/ hammerhand) for the pallies gives them the edge IMO

True Brother!

Consider also that DWK weapons are S+2 so they're also wounding on 2+, but hit on a 4+. Hard to hit, easy to wound.
Palis will hit on a 3+ and wound on a 3+. A little harder but more consistent attack.

.... Ummmm the both units are wounding on 2's the mace adds a standard +2 str. If we use the hammers, even without hammerhand we wounds on 2's. with halberds, going first and getting a kill is the best option. Limits our wounds received even more.

I just see the Deathwing Knights as a slightly tougher thunderhammer/stormshield squad that can only fight well for 1 turn before going all flaccid. What's the big deal?

Not really, toughness 5 and against other termies they wound the same as us using ap3 weapons. Plus I think they can take a cyclone missile launcher aswell. Not sure.

Sai wrote:I just see the Deathwing Knights as a slightly tougher thunderhammer/stormshield squad that can only fight well for 1 turn before going all flaccid. What's the big deal?

They look pretty cool though

they cant get any other upgrade except transport, the relic wich grants fear & adamantium will and additional members.. the problem with them is that given the most enemys are marine type you can simply put a cheap tactical squad on them and ruin their day if they dont smite. after they do they become pretty much useless and easy to be killed by assault specialists.

to top it they are slow... yes deepstriking with belial or homers for no scatter might be helpful but it certainly wont help them get into combat soon. in this case they are like khorne & slanesh daemons. they are scary once they hit you in close combat but for that they first have to reach you wich takes......... ages if you oppnent is smart.

That is why you don't take terminators... Especially assault ones... Point sink = pro plays!

Click here for reasons why terminators are bad

How many cyclone missile launchers can you take in a squad? If we compare the shooting between terminators, we have psybolt ammunition and psycannons. I think we have the advantage in shooting. But that depends on how many missile launchers a squad can take. Plus I think the cool thing they have is plasma cannons! I haven't gotten the codex to actually look at the points cost but I think their termis cost more. I think ours is more cost efficient. Another note we should compare is their librarians vs our inquisitors! I realized that our inquisitors are like librarians (if we switch out for prescience). Which psyker is better and why?

Close combat and survivability is a different story though. I think our paladins are better than their knights (what ever they're called). Heck, it'd be pretty fun if we actually had someone test it out (models in all) instead of number crunch.

As far as Paladins vs Knights goes, a lot of factors should be taken into consideration, which will mean the end result will have a lot of variance.

-How many Hammers/Swords/Halbreds do the Paladins have? i6, 4++, or S8 ap2 will really change the way the fight goes.

-How many rounds of shooting do the Paladins get at the Knights? Paladins will typically have Psycannons which shoot twice as many shots as Missile Launchers, not to mention the standard storm bolter on the rest of the Paladins (which may or may not have Psybolt Ammo)

-How many points are we talking per squad? Sure, a 10-man Paladin squad may beat a 10-man Knight squad, but the point is moot if the Paladins cost 100 points more to field.

-How do the Knights roll on the turn they pop their maces? Without s10 ap2, it will take the Knights a long time to kill the Paladins, but on that turn they'll cause instant death and make Paladins roll their 4++ or 5++ saves.

I think, in a real game, I'd give the edge to Paladins simply because of their shooting and inherit durability, but in a straight up 1 on 1, Knights have the potential to rip the Paladins apart the turn they pop Mace, their 3++ saves, and being 10 points cheaper base.

edit: Side question - How easy is it to manipulate the +1T rule while in b2b for the Knights in-game? Does it stack higher than T5?

@ brother volvoe: 1 cyclone missle launcher per 5 man.

inquisitors and DA libby are both cheap. the difference however are that a DA libby are wounded "harder" and wont get oneshotted by strength 6 and higherhe is more durable overall and a DA libby psyker level 1 is cheaper than a inquisitor with just psyker level 1.
also he has a psychic hood. wich isnt like in 5th edition but still a nice addition overall against enemy psykers. especially for units like deathwing and black knight units wich stick together pretty often.

our terminators are better alone for the fact that they got assault grenades. no other terminator unit in the game got this and this makes our weapons that strike at initiative more fearsome than others.

DA terminators got the nice addition that they are able to mix and match their setup for every member of the squad.. have a 10 man unit of deathwing terminators.. 3-4 hammer & shield 2 cyclone missle launchers/any other weapon etc, you dont have to rely on one thing only wich makes them fairly nice. especially with split fire and beeing twin linked with all shooting weapons after deep striking.

and for brother vecuu: no you can not gain multiple +1 toughness "stacks" the wording on fortress of shields is: "models with the inner circle rule in b2b contact with 2 or more models with this rule gain +1 toughness" so fear not for t6+ terminators

I figured it capped at t5. Thankfully we have Hammerhand

Although, having to be base to base with 2+ other models would make it pretty hard to achieve t5 majority.

For instance, let's say it's a 5-man squad set base to base to base, etc to look like:

ABCDE

B, C, and D all have two other units in b2b with them, whereas A and E only have 1. 3/5 would make the unit t5.

But if even one person drops b2b contact with another one, via situations like:

A BCDE
or
AB CDE

The unit drops to t4 majority. Since only C and D make the unit two-of-five t5 in the first example, and D alone is t5 in the second example.

Seems like whenever the Knights charge or would be charged, the unit would almost instantaneously drop to majority t4 to attempt to make it into b2b with the enemy.

I think it's more to do with shooting... Str 8 blasts, las cannons, str 8 Autocannons and so on.

Yeah, I hear ya

It would be interesting to see how the math works out against blasts. Against strong ones like Plasma Cannons or Demolisher Cannons, you would be better off staying t4 and spread out to avoid unnecessary wounds, since they'll wound on a 2+ whether your t4 or t5.

I guess the mathy-stuff really comes into play against the S4/5 templated weapons. Do you clump up to make yourselves harder to wound at the expense of the enemy landing more hits?

T5 is strong against small-arms fire, though, especially when paired with a 2+ save.