The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

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The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Andersp90 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:41 pm

I just finished reading The emperor's gift and liked it alot.

But there is one thing that I simply cant accept when it comes to fluff.

Logan Grimnar is standing 3 m from the Grand Master Loros (one of, if not, the best with a pair of falchions). Lolos is slain by Logan before he even get to hoist his blades.

To me that is simply stupid. Loros was a brotherhood champion before he became a Grand Master, so his skill with a blade is/was immense.

Still, Logan felled him with ease...

To me, that bit is beond silly.

Am I the only one feeling like this??

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Rivan on Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:20 pm

I think we can't necessarily equate the statistics in the rules with the novel. I know for a fact authors don't write like that. I agree that I think it was quite shocking and too easy. But I think its more to emphasize that Logan is just the SHI-!!! After all, he's been the SW Great Wolf for several hundred years already.

If we really want to simulate statistics...Grandmaster Joros would have a 4++ invul save and would have 5 attacks at I5 (due to falchions). Logan has 5 attacks on the charge hitting at I5 as well. He is eternal warrior so can't be force killed. He can divide his attacks from frost axe to power fist and could conceivably instant kill Joros.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by drakeharlem on Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:22 pm

I didn't read the book, but that does seem like really poor writing to me. I guess we're supposed to believe that Logan is such a bad ass that he puts even one of the greatest Grey Knights to shame. That's the typical over the top crap you'd expect to find in a codex.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Andersp90 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:38 pm

Rivan wrote:I think we can't necessarily equate the statistics in the rules with the novel. I know for a fact authors don't write like that. I agree that I think it was quite shocking and too easy. But I think its more to emphasize that Logan is just the SHI-!!! After all, he's been the SW Great Wolf for several hundred years already.

If we really want to simulate statistics...Grandmaster Joros would have a 4++ invul save and would have 5 attacks at I5 (due to falchions). Logan has 5 attacks on the charge hitting at I5 as well. He is eternal warrior so can't be force killed. He can divide his attacks from frost axe to power fist and could conceivably instant kill Joros.

I dont think you can look at stats like that and get a true answer.

A normal grey knight is much more powerfull in the book than the ones we have access to in our codex (strike squad).

I dont mind logan to be a beast. But killing a grand master, and wich such ease. It just seems so stupid.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Zealadin on Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:38 pm

When it comes to Space Wolves, don't expect balance or logic (or honour).

This is why I don't really enjoy most of the BL novels. They are extremely poorly written in a scissor, paper, rock kind of way.
They are a marketing tool to sell models to noobs.

It's this kind of rubbish that places the authors squarely in the 'children's books' catagory. Simplistic, unrealistic even for a scifi universe.
They sell because they support the hobby for marine players, and the game is made to make them feel like they play the force represented in the novels.
Yes one marine could kill a normal 1500 point army of any other force. It's in the novels!
It's also the justification many marine players give as to why the majority of choices in their books are totally under costed.

It's really just a shame the authors are given such free reign to write whatever rubbish they like. If it was a bit more organised and shaped they could really define the universe a lot better and build upon a stagnating storyline.
Of course they would have to try that balance thing....

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by drakeharlem on Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:49 pm

Zealadin wrote:When it comes to Space Wolves, don't expect balance or logic (or honour).

This is why I don't really enjoy most of the BL novels. They are extremely poorly written in a scissor, paper, rock kind of way.
They are a marketing tool to sell models to noobs.

It's this kind of rubbish that places the authors squarely in the 'children's books' catagory. Simplistic, unrealistic even for a scifi universe.
They sell because they support the hobby for marine players, and the game is made to make them feel like they play the force represented in the novels.
Yes one marine could kill a normal 1500 point army of any other force. It's in the novels!
It's also the justification many marine players give as to why the majority of choices in their books are totally under costed.

It's really just a shame the authors are given such free reign to write whatever rubbish they like. If it was a bit more organised and shaped they could really define the universe a lot better and build upon a stagnating storyline.
Of course they would have to try that balance thing....

I haven't read a lot of the Black Library catalog, but only two out of the six or so I have read were "children's book" bad. I can't remember the title of it, but one was so bad I couldn't stand to finish reading it. I think that one was about Ultramarines. They are definitely hit and miss, maybe you just happened to pick up a bunch of the misses.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Dark Bjoern on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:11 am

Zealadin wrote:When it comes to Space Wolves, don't expect balance or logic (or honour).
What do you mean with SW and expect no honour? It had been the Lord Inquisitor that betrayed Logan and fired up on his ship first. The intention was to parley with the Inquisitor but instead the Inquisitor ordered to open fire up on the SW. So what are you ecpecting? As long as their opponent shows his honour the SW will respect it and act equal honourable. But the Inquisitor and the GM acted without honour and had been treaten equal.
And the Grand Master was a foul. Logan came to the Inquisitorīs ship with only 3 Wolf Guards while the GK had outnumbered them. In their arrogance they all ecpected that Logan would bend his knee before them. SW never give up. He made his point: Noone betrayes the SW and get away with it unpunished. He simple caught the GM with his pants down. Logan is the Great Wolf, he will bend his knee only in front of the Golden Throne itself.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by drakeharlem on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:19 am

Dark Bjoern wrote:
Zealadin wrote:When it comes to Space Wolves, don't expect balance or logic (or honour).
What do you mean with SW and expect no honour? It had been the Lord Inquisitor that betrayed Logan and fired up on his ship first. The intention was to parley with the Inquisitor but instead the Inquisitor ordered to open fire up on the SW. So what are you ecpecting? As long as their opponent shows his honour the SW will respect it and act equal honourable. But the Inquisitor and the GM acted without honour and had been treaten equal.
And the Grand Master was a foul. Logan came to the Inquisitorīs ship with only 3 Wolf Guards while the GK had outnumbered them. In their arrogance they all ecpected that Logan would bend his knee before them. SW never give up. He made his point: Noone betrayes the SW and get away with it unpunished. He simple caught the GM with his pants down. Logan is the Great Wolf, he will bend his knee only in front of the Golden Throne itself.

With the addition of some context it makes a little more sense. If they were all standing around expecting him to play nice and he lashed out and struck him down it sounds more plausible.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Rivan on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:34 am

drakeharlem wrote:
Dark Bjoern wrote:
Zealadin wrote:When it comes to Space Wolves, don't expect balance or logic (or honour).
What do you mean with SW and expect no honour? It had been the Lord Inquisitor that betrayed Logan and fired up on his ship first. The intention was to parley with the Inquisitor but instead the Inquisitor ordered to open fire up on the SW. So what are you ecpecting? As long as their opponent shows his honour the SW will respect it and act equal honourable. But the Inquisitor and the GM acted without honour and had been treaten equal.
And the Grand Master was a foul. Logan came to the Inquisitorīs ship with only 3 Wolf Guards while the GK had outnumbered them. In their arrogance they all ecpected that Logan would bend his knee before them. SW never give up. He made his point: Noone betrayes the SW and get away with it unpunished. He simple caught the GM with his pants down. Logan is the Great Wolf, he will bend his knee only in front of the Golden Throne itself.

With the addition of some context it makes a little more sense. If they were all standing around expecting him to play nice and he lashed out and struck him down it sounds more plausible.

Totally concur with Dark Bjoern. While I'm a die hard GK loyalist. Grandmaster Joros deserved what he got for being a lapdog for the Inquisition. The Inquisition (and by association the Grey Knights) totally betrayed Logan by luring him into a parley and shamelessly crippling Logan's flagship without provocation.

Just for the record, just because of the awesome scene where Logan buried the Axe of Morkai into Joros' skull, I bought the Logan finecast model Razz

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Andersp90 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:00 am

Rivan wrote:
drakeharlem wrote:
Dark Bjoern wrote:
Zealadin wrote:When it comes to Space Wolves, don't expect balance or logic (or honour).
What do you mean with SW and expect no honour? It had been the Lord Inquisitor that betrayed Logan and fired up on his ship first. The intention was to parley with the Inquisitor but instead the Inquisitor ordered to open fire up on the SW. So what are you ecpecting? As long as their opponent shows his honour the SW will respect it and act equal honourable. But the Inquisitor and the GM acted without honour and had been treaten equal.
And the Grand Master was a foul. Logan came to the Inquisitorīs ship with only 3 Wolf Guards while the GK had outnumbered them. In their arrogance they all ecpected that Logan would bend his knee before them. SW never give up. He made his point: Noone betrayes the SW and get away with it unpunished. He simple caught the GM with his pants down. Logan is the Great Wolf, he will bend his knee only in front of the Golden Throne itself.

With the addition of some context it makes a little more sense. If they were all standing around expecting him to play nice and he lashed out and struck him down it sounds more plausible.

Totally concur with Dark Bjoern. While I'm a die hard GK loyalist. Grandmaster Joros deserved what he got for being a lapdog for the Inquisition. The Inquisition (and by association the Grey Knights) totally betrayed Logan by luring him into a parley and shamelessly crippling Logan's flagship without provocation.

Just for the record, just because of the awesome scene where Logan buried the Axe of Morkai into Joros' skull, I bought the Logan finecast model Razz

Joros got what was coming for him. Im not arguing that point.

But the fact that a master with blades dident react to a threat coming from 3 meters away.... just how did he earn those valors the book mentions time and time again?

Also, hyprion blows/breaks logans blade.. But in the next scene the balde is whole again.. Question

Im a die hard GK noob/fanboy. And seeing a GM getting wiped like that by a "common" marine. Heresy!!! Shocked

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Rivan on Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:26 am

Andersp90 wrote:Im a die hard GK noob/fanboy. And seeing a GM getting wiped like that by a "common" marine. Heresy!!! Shocked

Don't forget, Logan is not a "common" marine. He is one of the most respected defenders of humanity in the Imperium and one of the most prominent Chapter Master there is. Think of him pretty much on the same level as the Grey Knights' Supreme Grandmaster.

IMO, its not Joros' lack of skill or speed that's in question here. The scene serves to highlight Joros' arrogance more than anything. He simply could not conceive that Logan w/ 3 wolf guard would ever consider attacking a Lord Inquisitor, a Grandmaster and 100 Grey Knights.

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Andersp90 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:01 pm

Rivan wrote:He simply could not conceive that Logan w/ 3 wolf guard would ever consider attacking a Lord Inquisitor, a Grandmaster and 100 Grey Knights.

I know. I just feel that it puts the GK in a bad light, power and skill wise.

I had always thought that "the emperors gift" was superior by far to that of a normal astares geen-seed.

I guess it isent. Smile

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Dark Bjoern on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:56 pm

Andersp90 wrote:
Rivan wrote:He simply could not conceive that Logan w/ 3 wolf guard would ever consider attacking a Lord Inquisitor, a Grandmaster and 100 Grey Knights.

I know. I just feel that it puts the GK in a bad light, power and skill wise.

I had always thought that "the emperors gift" was superior by far to that of a normal astares geen-seed.

I guess it isent. Smile
It has been the Inquisition that puts the GK in a bad light. Thatīs the reason why i play GK without Inquisition.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Andersp90 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:19 pm

Dark Bjoern wrote:It has been the Inquisition that puts the GK in a bad light. Thatīs the reason why i play GK without Inquisition.

You are missunderstanding me.

I am talking about the skill at arms. Not honour.

"Grey knights are to an astartes what an astartes is to a human."

Thats directly from the fluff.

A chapter maters, no matter how skilled, shouldent be able to do what logan did.

I think is silly.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Dark Bjoern on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:54 pm

Andersp90 wrote:
Dark Bjoern wrote:It has been the Inquisition that puts the GK in a bad light. Thatīs the reason why i play GK without Inquisition.

You are missunderstanding me.

I am talking about the skill at arms. Not honour.

"Grey knights are to an astartes what an astartes is to a human."

Thats directly from the fluff.

A chapter maters, no matter how skilled, shouldent be able to do what logan did.

I think is silly.
I understood what you wanted to say.
Oh, and SW are no normal Astartes. Our Primarch had been Chuck Norris. lol!

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by drakeharlem on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:00 pm

Dark Bjoern wrote:

Oh, and SW are no normal Astartes. Our Primarch had been Chuck Norris. lol!

And here I thought it was widely accepted that Draigo was Chuck Norris.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Andersp90 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:20 pm

Dark Bjoern wrote:
Andersp90 wrote:
Dark Bjoern wrote:It has been the Inquisition that puts the GK in a bad light. Thatīs the reason why i play GK without Inquisition.

You are missunderstanding me.

I am talking about the skill at arms. Not honour.

"Grey knights are to an astartes what an astartes is to a human."

Thats directly from the fluff.

A chapter maters, no matter how skilled, shouldent be able to do what logan did.

I think is silly.
I understood what you wanted to say.
Oh, and SW are no normal Astartes. Our Primarch had been Chuck Norris. lol!

No offence but I dont see why the SW gene-seed should be any better than a normal astartes seed? Smile

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by drakeharlem on Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:51 pm

Every chapter believes their gene-seed to be from superior stock than the others. As do their players.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Zealadin on Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:40 pm

See you are all arguing about what happened and missing the point entirely. A GK would never be so retarded as to do what the oft corrupt Inquisition asks. (And if he was a GK would never be caught unprepared - not only are they psychic but always expecting daemonic incursion)

The whole fluff of the GK's is they don't have pride because that would make them corruptable.

That's the problem with the BL novels. The author decides he wants something stupid to happen and because there is no one with a shovel nearby to smash him over the head and bury him in the woods nearby when he starts walking all over other armies/races fluff he gets away with it.

Good authors create fluff in which there is plausible reasons for things going wrong, with respect for all the races and types involved in the novel.
BL novels are about everyone else being a beatstick for whoever the novel is about, usually with a few deaths so a Space Marine can solo a Tyranid Splinter Fleet single handedly or something similar.

The novels are a marketing tool in which GWS makes a specific army seem many times better than they could possibly be in reality so people go out and buy a new army.
If the books were an accurate portrayal of the SW's they would have simply invaded the eye, killed off all the CSM, and all the Daemons, and the Chaos Gods, and then taken up house inside the warp as the new gods.

TLDR: If you want a poorly written novel that will get you interested in an army because it just kicks so much ass then BL is great.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Dark Bjoern on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:51 pm

drakeharlem wrote:Every chapter believes their gene-seed to be from superior stock than the others. As do their players.
You should read Prospreo Burns. There was an interesting talk between a SW Runepriest and the main character, some kind of remembracer.
It was about Horus and if the SW think that Russ should become Warmaster instead of Horus. The answer of the Runepriest was that every Primarch and Legion was created for a special purpose. Horus to be the Warmaster, Night Haunter as an instrument of Terror and Leman Russ and the SW as the Emperorīs Executioners. The SW are made for killing SM. And even a GK is nothing else then a SM.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by drakeharlem on Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:58 pm

Dark Bjoern wrote:
drakeharlem wrote:Every chapter believes their gene-seed to be from superior stock than the others. As do their players.
You should read Prospreo Burns. There was an interesting talk between a SW Runepriest and the main character, some kind of remembracer.
It was about Horus and if the SW think that Russ should become Warmaster instead of Horus. The answer of the Runepriest was that every Primarch and Legion was created for a special purpose. Horus to be the Warmaster, Night Haunter as an instrument of Terror and Leman Russ and the SW as the Emperorīs Executioners. The SW are made for killing SM. And even a GK is nothing else then a SM.

Being the "Emperors executioners" and being "made to kill marines" don't equate to the same thing in my mind.


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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Zealadin on Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:42 pm

All marines are the emperors executioners.
Whether GK are just Space Marines or not depends entirely on if you are a REAL Grey Knight player, or just a Marine player on the bandwagon Smile

The new codex may have blurred the lines, but the old lore was the only lore worth following.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Dark Bjoern on Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:37 pm

drakeharlem wrote:
Dark Bjoern wrote:
drakeharlem wrote:Every chapter believes their gene-seed to be from superior stock than the others. As do their players.
You should read Prospreo Burns. There was an interesting talk between a SW Runepriest and the main character, some kind of remembracer.
It was about Horus and if the SW think that Russ should become Warmaster instead of Horus. The answer of the Runepriest was that every Primarch and Legion was created for a special purpose. Horus to be the Warmaster, Night Haunter as an instrument of Terror and Leman Russ and the SW as the Emperorīs Executioners. The SW are made for killing SM. And even a GK is nothing else then a SM.

Being the "Emperors executioners" and being "made to kill marines" don't equate to the same thing in my mind.

But thats what it meant. The Emperor created the SW for the case he needs someone to punish another SM Legion. Thatīs why the Emperor send the SW to Prospero to hunt down Magnus and his Thousand Sons. Just read Prospero Burns.

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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Andersp90 on Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:26 am

"A grey knight is to an astrates what an astrates is to a mere human.......Unless they face an astrates that howls. Then they are fucked".

This is the new fluff, and we must all follow it! lol!


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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

Post by Souba on Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:24 pm

Dark Bjoern wrote:
drakeharlem wrote:
Dark Bjoern wrote:
drakeharlem wrote:Every chapter believes their gene-seed to be from superior stock than the others. As do their players.
You should read Prospreo Burns. There was an interesting talk between a SW Runepriest and the main character, some kind of remembracer.
It was about Horus and if the SW think that Russ should become Warmaster instead of Horus. The answer of the Runepriest was that every Primarch and Legion was created for a special purpose. Horus to be the Warmaster, Night Haunter as an instrument of Terror and Leman Russ and the SW as the Emperorīs Executioners. The SW are made for killing SM. And even a GK is nothing else then a SM.

Being the "Emperors executioners" and being "made to kill marines" don't equate to the same thing in my mind.

But thats what it meant. The Emperor created the SW for the case he needs someone to punish another SM Legion. Thatīs why the Emperor send the SW to Prospero to hunt down Magnus and his Thousand Sons. Just read Prospero Burns.


jo do know that prospero burns does not got all information as why the space wolves attacked the thousand sons ?
The Space Wolves were then ordered by the Emperor to bring Magnus before the him to answer for this. Russ, however, was convinced by Horus to launch an attack on the Thousand Sons rather than attempt to negotiate.

beeing executioners. yeah they are but it was for sure not the intent to be executioners of astartes

Souba
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Re: The emperor's gift (spoiler alert)

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