Hammerhand....

by Steel Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:07 am

i'm sorry for being away from the forum for so long...it's just life's so busy i rarely find some time to get here and follow the community Sad

so, i was looking around in the GW store in Milan the other day, and i got engaged in a discussion on our new-ish codex with the store guy.
Let me tell you: i'm not so pleased with the new codex, many of the cool stuff are gone (mainly the ws5 and str6, the old shrouding and the base 2 attacks we had, because we were so awesome to use the bolter in close combat).
I know and understand that all in all considered, the new stuff makes up for the old loss, but still i don't like what new we got versus the old we've lost (comeon, swords the most common nemesis weapon? HOW? )

anyway, i was arguing expecially against the str6 now a feamsy str4 like any suky marine and the guy told me "well use hammerhand" and i was like "yeah, ok, str5 IF i pass the psy test, and that means taking a risk to have something less than what was before free" and he told me "yeah, but you can use it more times and go up to str7 if you have more mastery levels"

is this true?
i mean, if i have a librarian with mastery level 3, can i use 3 hammerhands and get to str7 ?

Well, i still DON'T like the fact we have to roll for so many psychic tests, it's pretty dangerous and will not work against an enemy that twart your psichic tests or leadership.... but it's still something

by Valten Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:11 am

No, he's wrong. You can't cast the same psychic power multiple times in the same turn. However, things like Hammerhand stack, and stack with Might of Titan so you could (for example) cast:

Hammerhand on Librarian.
Might of Titan on Librarian's unit.
Hammerhand from the unit.
Hammerhand from another Character in the unit.

And so on...

by Steel Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:54 am

that's what i told him aswell, that you can't cast the same power twice in the same turn.
he told me that you can't cast the same power only if it is a shooting power (attacking one) , but others you can cast as many times as you want, so as long as you have powers available

by Aubec le noir Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:11 am

i think the guy is right ... brother MJS talked about that not so long ago and i believe remembering that he said that (as long as you have the good mastery level and that you haven't used all your powers this turn) you could cast the same power multiple time in a turn except the shooting ones... scratch

maybe the faq could clear this point ... Suspect

Aubec

by Steel Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:16 am

cheers Brother Aubec, thank you Smile

well, i still don't like to rely so much on psychic tests but it's better then nothing.

by NemesisForce Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:18 am

It's clear you can cast Hammerhand multiple times and since there's no rule against it stacking I think it's viable until errata'd.

by Valten Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:53 am

It's already in the main FAQ.

Q: Do the effects of the same psychic power cast
multiple times on the same unit stack? (p50)
A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise.

Q: Can a pysker attempt to cast the same psychic
power more than once in a turn? (p50)
A: No, unless the psychic power itself specifically allows it.

by Klomster Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:01 am

I can agree upon that the new dex doesn't have as coo things as the old did.

And i miss the simple old days when i could just take my knights and play a game.

Now i don't have a painted army with an army list.

Btw, steelhammer.com, kinda cool site.

by MJSwasey Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:25 pm

Valten is correct. You used to be able to repeat the same power (my proof of that is what Aub mentioned) but with the latest faq it is gone. However, as mentioned, powers from different sources can be used and do stack. Therefore a unit with a level 2 libby without mot can only get +2 strength ( unit hammerhand, hq hammerhand hq can't hammerhand again even though he's level 2), where as a unit with a libby with mot can get +3 ( unit hammerhand, hq hammerhand, hq mot).

Note this applies to psycommunion now too. The trick where you could auto come in turn 2 by having a level 2 and one other guy cast it three times are gone.

Finally, if psy defenses are a problem, take a storm raven. Hoods are usually only on psykers, and those psy shock missiles work great for sniping them.

by NemesisForce Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:49 pm

Hmmm...it's painfully obvious I should be printing/using the updated FAQ. Embarassed

by Steel Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:55 pm

cheers, thank you all for the replies.

@ Valden: seems you're right, damn it Smile

this is one more bad point in this codex...

@ Klomster: thank you so much!!
i don't update the website very often, i'm very very slow in my works, but keep looking at it one in a while... indeed, i think i just have an update ready for the next days Smile

and yeah, i somewhat miss the old days too...kind of strange, we all asked for a new codex for so much time...and now that we have it, i feel i've been left down.

@ MJSwasery: yeah too bad even with psycommunion... and well, i can't tailor a new army list each time i play against someone... that's one of the worst part of this codex: it's FULL of nice stuff but it's all VERY situational... kind of crap

by MJSwasey Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:36 pm

Well the nice thing about psyCommunion is that it comes on a LOT of our HQ's anyway, or it's cheap on inquisitors. I've found with this codex i often have at least one thing in reserve, so having the psy communion is great as a bonus. same with hammerhand - it's not a game changer to get +1 strength, but it's a nice bonus.

I do lament the loss of ws5 and s6 - those made us very unique and flavorful. The new psychic defenses are terrible, too. But the more i play the new codex the more im liking all the options it has. And im noticing my play shift in some neat ways (like the reserving things, and how I'm learning what games to mad rush in and what games to shit back and shoot with, all with the same list.) I think, while we did lose some cool 'character' of the codex, we really gained a lot in playstyle and flexibility/general purpose.

I've actually found the opposite of you - I think we get a lot of "general purpose" stuff for free.

by Valten Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:49 am

Steel wrote:
@ Valden: seems you're right, damn it

I'm always right. Cool

by Steel Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:26 am

MJSwasey wrote:I've actually found the opposite of you - I think we get a lot of "general purpose" stuff for free.

so, i know this will derail the topic on a completely different subject, but i have to ask it Razz

what did you find that's useful generally speaking and not so situational?

looking at this codex i see:
(i'm translating from italian version, so i'm sorry if some names are wrong...i hope you'll understand anyway)

- Brotherhood champion / Crowe: can't see the point in them: to be good, they have to die...and they cost massive points...so highly unefficient in my mind, except you really have to kill that big bad-ass guy at all costs, so it's very situational. Damn, they can't even attack when they are in parry-mode, and against any single, non mostrous / indipendent model they just do 1 attack...are you kidding?

- purgation squad: oh nice, i get to shoot even if i can't see them, but they get 4+ cover save...again something potentially cool, but ruined since you can't count on it being effective.

- paladins: too much costy for what they give back in my opinion

- dreadknight: str6 is just lame for a big robot with the same weapons as a dreadnought and inv5+ is somewhat too crap for me

- stormraven: cool, but 12 armor...is it made with paper? how can you do an orbital manouver with the same armour then a rhino? then why don't we just attach a parachute to a rhino and drop it down lol ? and only 4 missiles usable only once per game

- every special character (kaldo, mordrak, stern) costs too much points for what they give back, expecially in a 1500 point game, you're point starved. Crow is silly, as i wrote before.
Thawn kick ass, at least Smile

and karamazov is cool

- Valeria: again, cool but the intradimensional thinghy you can use it only once per game

- joakero and inquisitor's warband: cool but just too much possibilities to make up something useful in the general game...plus you'll want to use points on Gk rather then inquisition stuff.

- All the Assassins (callidus, eversor, vindicare and culexus): are all very situational and need a load of points to be used, expecially the Culexus.

And also about our equipment, ther's alot of nice stuff but effective only in specific situations, like the psylencer, psicolum etc.

but, i have to admit, i had very few games with this codex... you all know i can rarely find time to paint, let alone find time to have a game.
And also, all my friends stopped playing so i'm left alone and don't know anyone to play with at the moment...
so all this opinions might very well be the fruits of my ignorance of this codex so far.

by nevek Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:58 am

Steel wrote:
MJSwasey wrote:I've actually found the opposite of you - I think we get a lot of "general purpose" stuff for free.

so, i know this will derail the topic on a completely different subject, but i have to ask it
what did you find that's useful generally speaking and not so situational?

looking at this codex i see:
(i'm translating from italian version, so i'm sorry if some names are wrong...i hope you'll understand anyway)

- Brotherhood champion / Crowe: can't see the point in them: to be good, they have to die...and they cost massive points...so highly unefficient in my mind, except you really have to kill that big bad-ass guy at all costs, so it's very situational. Damn, they can't even attack when they are in parry-mode, and against any single, non mostrous / indipendent model they just do 1 attack...are you kidding?

brotherhood champion isnt bad...in low points game hes a terror in hand to hand...plus his psycic power is great

- purgation squad: oh nice, i get to shoot even if i can't see them, but they get 4+ cover save...again something potentially cool, but ruined since you can't count on it being effective.

not a fan of these guys myself...theyre not bad its just that with all the other goodies in the heavy support slot...its really hard to take them

- paladins: too much costy for what they give back in my opinion

paladins can rock if used properly....theyre really hard to kill of as a unit...especially if you put draigo in the squad...multi wound shenanigans galore

- dreadknight: str6 is just lame for a big robot with the same weapons as a dreadnought and inv5+ is somewhat too crap for me

with a sword and a teleporter...he can ruin your opponents day...granted i only use him in 2k pt games or above...but he either goes on a killing rampage and/or sucks up a hell of alot of fire power...leaving the rest of my army unhindered

- stormraven: cool, but 12 armor...is it made with paper? how can you do an orbital manouver with the same armour then a rhino? then why don't we just attach a parachute to a rhino and drop it down lol ? and only 4 missiles usable only once per game

its not bad...got lots of fire power...fast...and can carry 12 models and 1 dreadnaught in your opponents face...great for blitzing your opponent...granted i use landraider crusader for the same purpose...but its a matter of choice

- every special character (kaldo, mordrak, stern) costs too much points for what they give back, expecially in a 1500 point game, you're point starved. Crow is silly, as i wrote before.
Thawn kick ass, at least and karamazov is cool

depends on how you use them...i use draigo alot (so much so that my best friend has started calling him draigqueeno)...this guy is perhaps the second most powerful character in hand to hand combat...and makes paladins troop choices...and when a melta/lascannon/any ap 1 or 2 insta kill weapon hits the squad that hes attached to...i desiginate the wound to him as its not insta kill for him and he has a 3++ save...this alone frustrates some of my opponents

- Valeria: again, cool but the intradimensional thinghy you can use it only once per game

no comment as have not used this one

- joakero and inquisitor's warband: cool but just too much possibilities to make up something useful in the general game...plus you'll want to use points on Gk rather then inquisition stuff.

some people like the inquisition stuff...and granted some of it is really powerful at its points (deathcult assasins anyone?)

- All the Assassins (callidus, eversor, vindicare and culexus): are all very situational and need a load of points to be used, expecially the Culexus.

vindicare slays vehicles like only the god emperor could....he also can pick out the special weapons guy in a squad...hes VERY useful
have not got to use the others but the callidus assasin im gonna try in higher point total games...would be nice to have him pop out from that dev squad in the back...killing some for just comming in and then shooting

And also about our equipment, ther's alot of nice stuff but effective only in specific situations, like the psylencer, psicolum etc.

psycannons are awesome...most likely the best all around weapon in the game
psilencer just plain sucks...dont use
incinerator...well its good
servo skulls work good if you can get them
the grenade options for the greyknights is really awesome...reread them youll understand

but, i have to admit, i had very few games with this codex... you all know i can rarely find time to paint, let alone find time to have a game.
And also, all my friends stopped playing so i'm left alone and don't know anyone to play with at the moment...
so all this opinions might very well be the fruits of my ignorance of this codex so far.

by DonFer Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:13 pm

I lost myself trying to find out who wrote what back there....

Anyways, the new GK might not have the things of old, but in the competitive scene they have become a top tier army. Which shows you how good all those units are.

by bigbri Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:25 pm

@Steel I don;t have a lot of time atm but I'll cover some of the basic pots quickly
- Brotherhood Champion is there to a)Be a cheap HQ option, you'd be somewhat gimped if you had to spend 150= on a HQ in a 1k pt game. As for Crowe sure he's useless but he's (relatively) cheap and gives you Purifiers as troops. If he was better he'd be more expensive and then people would be complaining about that.
- purgation squad So because they get the 4+ purgation squads are sub-par? Any half decent player will be getting his guys cover anyway since it's so prevalent in 5th edition. At least with Astral Aim you can hit them without exposing your guys to return fire.
- Paladins are fine as they are. you might think they're expensive for what they do. Personally I think they're pretty well priced for thevarious things you can do with them.
- Fluffwise the SR is protected from the heat of reentry by the ceramite shielding so doesn't need a massive AV, simply piling on more metal won't massively help it survive an orbital reentry. in game terms AV12 is a balancing factor to offset it's speed + transport ability + gunship ability
- Of course the special characters are kind of expensive in 1500pt games. Almost every special character in every book is. This is nothing exclusive to GK. look at BA with Mephy/Sanguinor Dante or SW with Logan Bjorn Ragnar and Njall Stormcaller. The extra cost is because of their special rules or the effect on the FoC, both of which have to be factored in.
- Inq warbands are incredible for what they do, and can be kitted out for lots of roles. of course you may prefer to spend your opts elsewhere and that's fine. Inq units are more of a minor thing to pacify old school DH players than anything else.

by MindBullet Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:43 pm

so i have been trying to prove to my fellow gamers at my local GW that hammerhand does stack.... how can i explain it to them??? thanks in advance guys!

by Souba Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:31 pm

if its your local GW. just go over to the terminal at the store and search for errata or FAQ. in the FAQ for the main rulebook you will find the following:

under the category psykers:
"Q: Do the effects of the same psychic power cast multiple times on the same unit stack?(p50)
A:Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise."

just show it to them there or download the errata/FAQ and print it to show them. i think that would solve the question Smile

by MindBullet Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:13 pm

Thanks ill give this a try!

by Zealadin Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:46 am

This main rulebook 'faq answer' for this is honestly really poor.
There are basically -no- situations in which the rules of the game support this fact, or you would be seeing double stealth, double fortune, double doom, etc etc etc.

They really pulled the proverbial turd out of their backsides with this answer.

Pure logic and common sense says that if MoT needs a SPECIAL (in italics) statement clarifying that it DOES stack with HH, then HH definately doesn't stack with itself, and double MoT doesn't give you +2S and a bonus 2d6 armour pen.

by Souba Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:35 am

i think the issue is more that you can easily add +1 to a stat or do it multiple times. since the max is 10.
for special rules however adding the same rule multiple times can be more confusing.

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