castelan crowe

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castelan crowe

Post by stormknight on Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:20 am

hey brothers, i've got the codex Very Happy
i've been looking at a competitive list trying to understand which units are the 'shizz' and what aren't, so i thought it might be a good idea to share this with you guys.

castellan crowe or garran? the codex seems to mix and match these names and i dont quite understand why?

anyway castellan crowe's main ability appears to be that of a brotherhood champion, titans herald helps the unit he's attached to and when a big nasty independant character with eternal warrior comes along, heroic sacrifice hopefully will do the job.

also he allows purifiers to be taken as TROOP choices which surely couldnt make him a better choice in your army heres why.

purifiers
- compared to strike squads have +1 attack and allow 2 heavy weapons for every 5 men instead of 1. They also have cleansing flame and cheaper nemesis halberds.
- compared to terminaotrs have the same number of attacks, yet the only downside being durability, terminators have better armor and can move and shoot with a pyscannon unhindered. points wise i still would choose purifiers as a cover save can usually be found quite easily.

some thoughts on anti-tank were paladins with pyscannons walking.

what do you guys think?
pirat

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by fa11en on Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:37 am

I believe that Garran Crowe is his name, and Castellan is a formal title.

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Ceasarian on Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:11 am

Well the use of Purifiers is indeed interesting, but I would hesitate to put them into the same category as Terminators/ use them as a replacement for terminators.

All of the internet lists that I have seen so far seem to rely heavily on the use of purifiers, to the point of excluding just about every other troops choice. Allot of them seem fixated on min/maxing these units to have 5x GKP, with two psycannons in a Rhino or Razorback. It is an interesting idea to me, but I'm not a big fan of the min/maxing thing.

If your going to run them, I would give some thought to how you want to the unit to work in a game. If your going to use them to take out big groups of orks, nids and IG- take falchions and some Daemon hammers. I would shy away from the halberds only because at I 4, you will be going before most of the horde units out there.

If you want this unit to take and hold an objective- I would suggest the use of a Razorback with assault cannon with the psybolt upgrade. Furthermore, I would advocate the use the dual Psycannons and at least on Daemon Hammer (hell always take a hammer- in case of a big bug/ dread).

Just remember when building a list- no plan ever survives contact with the enemy, so be ready to accomplish some interesting tasks and roles with a unit that was not really designed for it. But versatility is one of the strengths of the Grey Knights.

I hope that this helps,
-Cease

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by stormknight on Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:14 am

i agree purifiers alone would get crushed due to their vulnerability to firepower.

although i do think grey knights should work as a single 'body' which means i wouldn't want to leave a purgation squad or pyscannon filled pagk 12inch or more behind the front line because the front line may need a unit to counter attack or more bodies. them force weapons need to be near the front line ideally.

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Constantine on Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:34 am

Versatility IS the key for sure.
I have found that the 5 man razor back lists are common in many other forces, especially BAs. So I would assume that people are applying tactics that work with other forces to their new GK forces.
Of course GKs are not the same as other forces, so I feel that as the number of play tests increases we will see the lists evolve to reflect the GKs uniqueness.

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by DarkRonin on Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:40 pm

First of all, Crowe CANNOT join another Unit due to not having the Independent Character. Think of him a bit like Mephiston where they both can't join any unit at all. Secondly, if he was able to, an entire unit of 60 guardsmen could charge the unit that he is with and gain Furious Charge (looking at about 126 attacks on the charge, at S4 and I4 against our Knights).

There are only two reasons why anyone would take him: 1) He allows Purifiers to count as Troops. 2) He can effectively tie up a unit in CC for a long time, especially with re-rolling failed saves in CC.

Sadly though, if he doesn't get into CC to tie something up, your opponent can lazily fire off a Lascannon at him and just get a free Kill Point (If you failed your 4+ Save, and this you can't re-roll).

A normal Brotherhood Champion is MANY TIMES better then he ever will be. Sure they don't have the Cleansing Flame power, but they can join ANY unit you want and benefits an entire unit with them just being there. They can just as easily take out Independent Characters like Crowe (Well easier for them because they have a Force Weapon and are Independent Characters; while it can be said for Crowe that he is carrying around a really sharp stick that has a chance to seriously poke someones eye out).

Look at it like this, both HQ's have Titan's Heralds, but one benefits a unit, the other benefits a guy who can only get a number of attacks against each model in Base Contact or a maximum of 4 if he charges either a Monstrous Creature OR another Character.


For everything else, such as Psycannons, the only difference now for the new codex compared to the old one (Daemonhunters) is that its a range and rate of fire. In Daemonhunters if you moved, your range dropped from 36" to 18" (The old profile is S6 AP4 Assault/Heavy 3 - Ignore Invulnerable Saves). You still had the same old number of shots, but now the range is set at 24" and the number of shots you get based on if you moved or not.

With anything in Terminator, you'll leverage off more shots on the move compared to anything that isn't wearing one, but these shots will give you the chane to wreck more of anything really. The more you roll, the more likely you'll get a 6 to Rend. This is entirely up to you, but if you can fit in two psycannons for a power armor unit and one in terminator armor, your getting the same number of shots as well.

Purifiers are an interesting choice, definitely the strongest on paper, and slightly more expensive point-wise compared to a Strike Squad. Though if you look at both squads point for point, they are slightly more expensive (only thing cheaper for them is both the hammer and falchions). You get more from them then a Strike Squad, but a Strike Squad has it's own strengths to. Like being able to Deep Strike and the Warp Quake power.

Both are good, it's just how they work differently that sets them apart.

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by kenderleech on Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:10 pm

Constantine wrote:
I have found that the 5 man razor back lists are common in many other forces, especially BAs. So I would assume that people are applying tactics that work with other forces to their new GK forces.


I\'ve already run into this on vassal and with my regular RL opponents.... Appearantly since I CAN take rhinos and razorbacks... they expect me to actually take them... and instead, i plop 3 land raiders on the table, and they flip out.

The only thing that the new codex changed for me is my termies score, my grandmasters make everyone better, and my PAGK squads (I refuse to call them strike squads) are 25 points cheaper due to justicar savings.

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by DarkRonin on Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:15 pm

As it is appropriate for the Grey Knights. We make extensive use of Land Raiders because both Rhinos and Razorbacks can't transport our Terminators Very Happy

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Zealadin on Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:15 pm

People like razorspam because its an easy way to play, and by its nature target saturation also makes it hard to cripple.
Its just sad that people want to do it with GKs.

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Constantine on Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:21 pm

Zealadin wrote:People like razorspam because its an easy way to play, and by its nature target saturation also makes it hard to cripple.
Its just sad that people want to do it with GKs.

It IS sad, but not unexpected.
I will ALWAYS love Land Raiders and GKs so I will continue to use them both regardless of the rule changes over time Very Happy

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Zealadin on Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:20 am

I was actually thinking LR's packed with deathcult assassins are quite good.
The assassins are so cheap the LR isn't sooo exp, like it would be with knights, and they are actually superior in some ways, ws5 for instance, and 4 attacks on the charge each.

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by DonFer on Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:28 am

I agree Borther Zealadin. RazorSpam is just boring. And people ae trying to adjust the SM tactic to GKs without giving the dex a good look.

As for Crowe, people don't like him because he's not an independant character, just like Mephiston. Because he cannot be attached to a unit, he looses much of its appeal. But Crowe can be used competitively and not only because he makes Prurifiers troops. He can be used as a Tar-pit unit, he excels at CC and thus he should be up to his knees in CC as soon as possible. Problems with shooty armies? Well, use cover to reach the target, or just hop on a LR/SR.

I did the same mistake in dismissing Mephiston as a usable character, before I started to use him, just because everyone else was saying he's no good. But now I know better, and I'm sure Crowe is not at all bad, and if used correctly can be the star of your army.

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by itsuperslug on Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:13 am

IMHO the only reason to take him is to make purifiers troops.

He's not an IC so can't join units and thus can be snipped at. If you use him as a tar pit unit yes he can use cleansing flame, kill a few guys, then using his reroll saves stance can take a few blows but as he grants his enemy furious charge the hidden power claw/ fist will hit and instant kill him!

So the only only good thing is making purifiers troops!

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by DonFer on Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:36 am

He grants Furious charge only to units that charge him, not to units that are already in CC with him. He hits on a 3+, re-rolls to hit, and causes wounds on a 4+, regardless of his low strength. Not the best of characters by any means, but still decent.

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Zealadin on Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:48 pm

But he gets an attack against each model in B2B or 4 attacks against an IC/MC, he will be lucky to do 1-2 wounds a round of combat, and he won't survive a round unless he uses blade sheild to reroll all his saves, which means he can only use his flame ability to throw wounds onto an enemy unit.

Mephiston is also a beast, he is basically what the Tyranid MC's that cost similar points should be like.
Especially since a lucky LC shot can't kill him, in fact only weapons that can remove a model aftey they take a wound really stand a chance since he has a hood for against force weapons.
He is alot more expensive, but his design was much more well thought out. In reality the DK's are built similarly to him.

Its really not that great to chuck him in a LR or SR since your paying 200+ points just to get him into CC, and he might do some major damage to a mob of orks if he gets the charge and can use his flame ability, but he really isn't ideal.

IMO he should have 4 wounds, and he should be able to use his daemon weapon to absorb any blows/shots that would instant kill him (like a sheild or something), so he can get across the table.

If we had a Mephiston version in our codex I would love it to be honest, since it makes a foot army much more viable!

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by DonFer on Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:36 am

I agree. but I'm not trying to prove Crowe is a Mephiston. I'm just saying that he's not a sub-par character. The thing is you'll have to pick his fights carefully, just like Mephiston. Crowe is ok, not the best of the best but still a decent character. I reckon the main reason for this is cleansing flame. With the ability to do damage to a unit every, turn they had to nerf him down somehow. Anyhow, This is just my oppinion.

I'd certainly play Crowe any day. He's like Mephiston, in that he has an specific role to play. He's not an auto-include-him-in-any-army kinda character. And not just becasue he makes purifiers troops. He's not the über powerful unit everyone expects him to be, just like Mephiston. But this is great since it will require more skill and less strength to play him. Just like Mephiston.


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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Zealadin on Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:41 am

True, there are alot of similarities, the real crunch point for me is that one lucky lascannon shot or similar takes him out of the game.
If he had a snazzy assassin style rule where he could jump out of any purifier unit then that would be cool, but delivery is a massive issue.

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by DonFer on Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:46 am

Agreed. Much like the stuff I buy from Wayland games.... Very Happy

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Darth Vegeta on Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:24 am

I ordered him, curious to give him a try when i FINALLY will get in another game of GK. I do find it annoying he can't join units...

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Rivan on Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:05 pm

Just read something interesting over at B&C:

- Crowe's close combat attacks rend on a 4+ (GK codex)
- Cleansing flame is considered a close combat attack (GW FAQ)
- Therefore, Crowe's cleansing flame rends on a 4+ affraid

What do you guys think?

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Souba on Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:45 am

sounds legit, looks like GW dig their own grave with this errata Very Happy

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Brother_Petros on Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:34 pm

But how legit is this really? Because he was my favorite character until I realized how subpar he is in certain games (my regular opponents are bloods, eldar, darkeldar, and deathwing). If this is true, it made my day Wink

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Zealadin on Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:41 pm

You can't add rending to a psychic power in this fashion, it is considered a close combat attack so that stuff like dodge, etc can be used against it.

Otherwise cleansing flame would ignore armour saves since Purifiers are all equipped with NFW's.

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Rivan on Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:44 pm

I think Zeal has it right.

I saw this on B&C and it seems it's an accepted truism there since there were no debates about it scratch

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Re: castelan crowe

Post by Brother_Petros on Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:18 am

Well perhaps only Crowe's ability can use rending...because it does specifically say that his close combat attacks rend and now that the flame is FAQed to be a close combat attack it should be affected. At least that makes sense to me

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Re: castelan crowe

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