1850 Ultra Denial

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1850 Ultra Denial

Post by MJSwasey on Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:43 pm

*disclaimer: this thread is not about fluffy armies. It's about stealing a win when the opponent thinks your clearly loosing*

A two land raider army is a great example of a denial Army. You can build a 1850 list down to two GK squads in land raiders, and one squad of termies with a GM attached. Why would you do this? Well the point of most 40k games, when you look at tournament scoring, is almost never to kill the most enemy units. It's to end the game in a certain spot, or to kill more things then your opponent.

Denial armies are, by nature, usually extremely good at kill points. Given the same points stuffed into either one unit or two, theoretically the one more expensive unit should equal the smaller ones, yet it scores 2 points while the 2 squads score only one. The land raiders and deep striking termies also make it easier to end the game on a certain spot, though less units do sometimes pose a challenge in larger # of objective games.

List #1
GM MCPsyCannon Holocaust MCNFW

Elite BC with MC FW, 9Termies(1 psycannon)

10 PAGK w/ 2 incin, frag/targeter
10 PAGK w/ 2 incin, frag/targeter

LR w/ smoke and EA
LR w/ smoke and EA

This list presents nothing that a weapon under s8 can even roll dice against first turn, and possibly for several turns after that. keep the land raiders moving away from melta and avoiding possibly outflank, and you have several turns of making their army useless while you shoot with a few lascannons. Termies come down and shoot something up with the psycannons, then as long as that IG plasma tank isn't close by they proceed to make everything run away from them, owning an objective area or masacreing troops/tanks. In Objectives it presents some really hard targets to push off of the points, and in kill points its usually fantastically hard to deal with, especially if you start blowing away some armor 12 tanks or get rear armor on one with termies. even if you end the gamebarely hanging on to a termie or immobilised land raider, you probably score at least 5 KP for the tie or 6 for the win.

List #2 EXTREME DENIAL
GM with Icon MCPsyCannon MCNFW Holocaust Unguents

Elite BC with MC psycannon, Holocaust Icon MCNFW
9 more termies, 1 psycannon
10 GK 2 Psycannons, Icon, Artificers, Unguents, Frag and targeter
10 GK 2 Psycannons, Icon, Artificers, Unguents, Frag and targeter

3 melta Orbital bombardments

you only have 4 killpoints. 4. if you kill 5 units you win. get to it. 10 man GK squads with psycannons are hard to push out of cover when on an objective, and this termie squad should stop anything it lands near from getting too far past it.

Yes these lists have some trouble with 4+ objective games (the second one more so) however i suggest giving them a try if you want the real elite, few model feel of the GK and if you want the opponent to feel smug right up untill the game ends, points are totaled, and he/she goes "WHAT? but i was winning!!!!!!!!"

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Re: 1850 Ultra Denial

Post by Nausaden on Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:34 pm

Awesome Brother MJS! I love list 2, I do this all the time! With so few warriors, skilled maneuvering can ensure us victory. At the same time, template weapons and AP2's are bad for business.

It's always fun to use small squads tactically, my preference in fact. I'd love to fit a Dread in, but they are just too pricey and are still KP's Razz

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Re: 1850 Ultra Denial

Post by Zealadin on Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:12 am

This is a really interesting concept and alot like the saim hann blog I keep an eye on.
The guy who runs it plays not by his opponents rules, but so that at the end of the game despite whats happened he wins according to the rules.
Often you can really take advantage by not playing by the accepted strategies because your opponent just won't understand whats happening!

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Re: 1850 Ultra Denial

Post by raven925 on Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:48 pm

i love both list's, close to mine but only 1 problem. in list 2 you have 3 orbital strikes and you are only allowed 0-1, everything else i like.

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Re: 1850 Ultra Denial

Post by MJSwasey on Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:58 pm

You know, you're right! I was trying to theorycraft a list in my head and forgot the restrictions. switch two out for a tricked out Dread or all three+ a wargear piece out for a retinue or LR.

The point remains the same. i realized one day that i was playing kill points to destroy the most enemy units, but that wasn't really the objective. If i killed one but lost one, i was no closer to winning. I played the last of that game doing some things totally different then i normally would (not assualting a squad i could deifnitely kill because one of mine would definitely die, instead attack one squad with an overkill of GK cuz i wouldn't loose any units and he'd loose one, etc) and winning that game. I know several people who will try to sit on objectives as early as turn 2 or three, when the unit could be safer and do more damage 10" away and be garunteed to be able to run there turn 5+, the only time objectives matter.

I carried this over to a few other games and it defintely helped to focus on the objective instead of just "killing the enemy" or sitting on the objective.

I might, once i buy a few more gk, experiment with a pretty much all PAGK army. Yes vehicles tougher then a rhino will be extremely tough to kill, but as long as i can survive their shots i don't need to kill their tanks. I just need to get troops to objectives the last turn (deep striking = sweet contesting!) or lose less then the other person does (elite armies are great at forcing 2 for ones)

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Re: 1850 Ultra Denial

Post by Aubec le noir on Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:43 am

really love those lists
one thing though : i'll put a GKT with SS/TH for the adaptability and the possibility to destroy a vehicle or a bif hardened monster in cc
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Last edited by Aubec le noir on Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:43 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : forgot a piece of sentence)

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Re: 1850 Ultra Denial

Post by Hamsterjoe on Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:05 pm

Very interesting concept indeed!
It should be cool to see if it works. But i worry about the terminators. So many and so... well they can be fragile, maybe they should be split up in twos?
Of course that would make up another kill point, but well. I just dont like the fact that some nasty Flamers/vindicator/aroman shots can take them all out very quickly!

I also fear there arent enough scoring units. 66% of the games are objective games so scoring units are needed. Hmm[/img]

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Re: 1850 Ultra Denial

Post by MJSwasey on Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:10 pm

The TH is a good idea - these are just basic points for you guys to take and improve, glad to see you are!

The turn termies deep strike in, if they don't have a good shotting target they can run, moving into a flamer/blast unfriendly configuration. and the deep striking helps protect them alot, as the oppontent has a maximum of one turn to shoot them, and since you deep struck out of the way, it really helps.

I played a varient of list two against IG, where i replaced the illegal meltas with a retinue of termies and spread them out evenly. I did this against IG using THAT SUPER TONS OF PLASMA TANK. My gm came in on the other side of cover from the plasma tank, they shot up and immobilised a chimera, then the following turn the 4 survivers multi assualted the troops in the chimera and the tank, earning their kill points back.

The other squad came in on the other side of the board, again shooting back armor on tanks and the multi assualting the next turn. tank heavy IG often get in each others way, making it easier to catch them and pretty easy to multi assualt.
The PAGK sat in a corner shooting everything that got close then keeping out of shrouding range of battle cannons. I had so few kill points on the table that killing two tanks and three IG squads (they should NEVER get out to shoot, even if theyre sure they'll kill us) netted a win.

only 33% of games need multiple scoring units. kill points don't, and command and capture you just need to sit pagk on your objective and get termies/LRs to contest theirs. since termies come in so late, it's often VERY hard for the opponent to turn around and kill enough termies to stop you contesting if you have huge squads.

Against that 1/3 of the many objective games, it will be tougher. rely on staying alive instead of killing, even when you could get a pretty good deal, and just make sure your units live to contest. heck, go to ground if it helps! remember you don't have to fire a single shot to win objective games. Your extremely tough to knock off ones you have, so just stay alive enough to contest theirs


Last edited by MJSwasey on Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:29 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: 1850 Ultra Denial

Post by Aubec le noir on Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:21 am

good tactics ... a little monotone but very efficient ! Twisted Evil
Aubec pirat

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Re: 1850 Ultra Denial

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