We are the new cheese!

I'd just like to hear your thoughts on the class of our new codex?
It seems everywhere on the interwebs I read that only power players play grey knights, and that everything in our codex is cheese.
I also find that when I ask to play a game with someone new they ask if I play grey knights before they accept (lucky I also have necrons)

Is our codex TOO POWERFUL?

Purifiers and Psyriflemen probably are, but the rest are fairly balanced I think as long as people don't purposely try to make cheesey lists. Just because we can do something doesn't necessarily mean we should.

Grey Knights are more powerful against elite heavy infantry armies I figure, but decidedly less useful against hordes and balanced marine-type armies. A space wolf player will cry because his 8 long fang missile launchers are almost useless against terminators but it's his own stupid fault for taking so many of them.

I'd like to think being slightly underpowered would push some people towrds having tactics rather than designing army lists. Look at the tactics section of this forum- lots of it is about designing armies, not so much as a whisper of a refused flank.

besides the psyriflemen there are multiple other things that make this codex pretty cheesy.

-Psyrifle dreads, already noted.
-grenades. our psychostroke and rad grenades are one of the reasons we can win many battles that are greatly against our favor.
-Fortitude. beeing almost immune to 33% of the damage results with every vehicle for free is pretty hardcore.
-grand strategy. since you can build any type of powerful list and adapt grand strategy to it to be more efficient for any gametype.
-force weapons and stormbolters across the board for a fairly cheap price.
-army wide assault cannons on crack (psycannons)
-highly costumizeable units.

thats just to name a few. this army got many things that outshines similar armys for even cheaper price in both points and $.

Sai wrote:Purifiers and Psyriflemen probably are, but the rest are fairly balanced I think as long as people don't purposely try to make cheesey lists.

You're forgetting one important thing: psycannons!


Every codex can make cheesy lists. GK are powerful, no denying that, but they are in no way broken or really unbalanced. In the end we have the same saves any normal marine player has, so throw enough wounds at GK and they die as easily as normal marines! I for one think the new necrons are very comparably in strength to GK now that reanimation protocols just can't be denied anymore they're just impossible to kill!

Brothers,

How much is the power of the codex to relfect that we are not likey to get an updated one for some time and a new ruleset due?

This is the normal way of things.

Or I could be just plan wrong.

Brother Flaxis

yes we are now a top tiers list !
but during about 7 years we were a bottom tier army.
So during that time we learned tactics and strategy to compensate the relative weakness of our old 3rd edition codex.
consequently, now that our army is really competitive the lessons we learned (often the hard way) makes us and our lists very difficult to challenge, and imho it's about time and it feels good to me.
I was fed up to support the despise of other players with their Tau or Tyranid or SM armies ... now they smile a little less.
So yes we are the new cheese and it feels good ... until next codex !
or until the players find the parade of our goodies and special rules : it the way it works and it fair.
Aubec

The way our new codex is written--yes, we CAN make cheesy lists. I could say the same for most of the other codices out there.

Brother Sai hit the nail on the head. Just because we can doesn't mean we should. That being said, there will always be WAAC players that will field the cheesiest GK list they can field just because that's who they are.

I make sure I utilize our special abilities and gear because what general who considers himself halfway tactically decent wouldn't use the resources he has available? However, I always field themed and balanced lists. AND have never really had a problem with my win/loss ratio. At my last local tourney, I won 5 out of 6 games. The only loss I had was due to my poor deployment and choices--not because my balanced list was not up to par.

So, are we the new cheese? We can be--just like any of the newer codices can be as well.

No, we're not cheesy. GK can be beaten, and we don't have unbeatable units. Our lists have fewer models and we don't have the firepower to match many shooty armies. Assault is not our best bet, and because we are few we have trouble in objective based games. So cheesy? Not at all.

GK are well balanced. Our units work well together throughout the Codex, and have great synergy with each other. Cheesy would mean we are unbeatable, and frankly that is not the case with any army in 40k.

Our codex isn't well balanced except against Space Wolves, the other codex made of pure cheese.

Arguably our codex is one of the best available right now.
I don't agree with alot of peoples analysis about why however.

GK's have amazing firepower with stormbolters, PsyAmmo only helps further.
Basic GKSS are not that great in combat despite much of the crying.
Purifiers with Purifying flame are arguably extremely overpowered versus hordes, and models with bad saves. Purifiers are balanced price wise without the power, with it.....

Psycannons are really good. I think more armies should get such flexible weapons instead of the rubbish we currently face where many armies can choose a weapon that only kills tank, or only kills infantry with no cross over. Ie the dark lance versus disintegrator for DE, one more point of S on the dissie and it would have been much more balanced and cost effective!

Fortitude is unfair... at the end of the day it means people can't just suppress our vehicles, and on relatively cheap transports thats not cool.
On any non rhino chasis vehicles its fine.

I haven't played GK since the new codex because I prefer the under dogs like my Dark Eldar. They can be good but bad play and your screwed.
GK now are too easy, and honestly I feel alot of the smart gameplay from last codex was stolen and replaced by cheese.

Its still a great book, but its a marine codex now.

Oh and psyflemen are not really overpowered, they are the only legit long range anti tank in the codex. They are about on par with a Dev squad and are a nice way of giving the army flexible.

The book is reasonably balanced against Space Wolves but against older codexes its less fair. Hopefully the next few codexes are balanced and bring everything up to par.

The new necrons really are up to par with the GK codex imho, as my friends put it "the necrons have been Matt Warded as well... FUUU"

Have to agree with your assessment of purifiers. I chose to take purifiers because i liked the fluff etc, but they really are VERY VERY strong, though i won't say overpowered. In the end they're T4 3+ like every other marine in PA, but cleansing flame can really be a game winner if you get them into combat, not to mention the cheap halberds and psycannons (up to 4 on a squad of 10 owns)

@ Zealadin

I agree with you. I find against the "top tier" army's, wolves and to a lesser extent blood angels (guard are extremely easy to beat) are the only army's I play that are competitive against our current codex.

I have only played a couple of games agains the new necron codex and I see some promising and competitive builds in that codex, but I would not call the Necron codex top tier.

Its kind of sad because they took Necrons, and instead of making the army better they looked at Space Wolves and GK and tried to make them into kinda crappy versions, what with transport spam, silly AV rules, and codex candy.
The worst thing is that warriors went from 3+ to 4+ changing the way the army looks purely to sell models, which is really quite lame...
If glancing changes next Edition we might see warriors shine again, but they became the typical xenos troop choice - take a min size squad in a transport to hold an objective. If your lucky they might kill something, or even better survive!

If that happened in the CSM codex, cause the armour is all old and starting to fall apart, there would be blood in the streets. Changes to the basic way an army works, even with lame fluff-fu isn't cool.

Arguably the changes to GK really changed the way the army works, but at the same time it can still be played oldschool (GK at least, Inq changed a lot) without huge issues.

Even Dark Eldar which is a good codex is still seen as less competitive than the old dex because to combat Dark Lance spam they made them even more expensive and less available. The army isn't boring like it used to be, but its still takes alot of skill to win.

In a way the GK codex is well made in that anyone can play it, the problem is they don't seem capable of transferring that kind of playability to other armies unless they have a 3+ save to fall back on.
A good player will still do MUCH better than a bad/new player but the learning curve is shallower to start with.

I think pyscotroke grenades are cheesey where's the skill or fun in that? For me grey knights stuck with standard wargear back in the days. Being an under dog brought about more dynamics and tactics to gameplay rather than I really needed to bring this grenade because it's what I've always wanted.

Yea being the underdog is really gives alot of armies some flavour and character.

stormknight wrote:I think pyscotroke grenades are cheesey where's the skill or fun in that? For me grey knights stuck with standard wargear back in the days. Being an under dog brought about more dynamics and tactics to gameplay rather than I really needed to bring this grenade because it's what I've always wanted.

I respect your opinion Brother. However, psychostroke grenades are just another piece of wargear that you use to "buff" your units. If you bring psychostroke grenades and expect that to win your game for you because you don't need any skill to use it, I'm afraid you're mistaken. The effects are very random and expecting the results to always carry you through is probably not very wise. I've faced lists that had it (whether on a GM or OXI or TM) and had no problems countering it. I know what it can do so I use tactics to neutralize it or counter it or avoid it--simple as that.

The problem with random effects that can be really good is that they can be quite debilitating to the already not so competitive armies, which often have their own random effects which they are expected to rely upon, while newer armies just use random effects and wargear as a bit of a buff, as you mentioned.

I'm not really leaning either way with the psycotrokes, but when a codex is this good it often becomes the straw that breaks the camels back (figuratively).

That is not a problem of our codex beeing cheesy, it has to do with older armies not beeing competitve any more. If GW would have made their job when they needed to, all codexes should have been updated by now. Instead we're still dealing with codexes from 4th and before.

That is a very true assessment Donfer. All comparisons are relative so when we take older codexes into consideration, you don't necessarily get an accurate comparison. Much like comparing apples w/ oranges.

From what I've seen, well-played IG, SW or BA lists (even well-balanced SM lists) can match up to GKs rather easily. Not sure yet about Necrons since I haven't personally seen them in action.

Psychotroke Grenades, like Mindshackle Scarabs, are a cheapshot that is un-needed by either army. Necrons shoot, GKs do both but have fewer models. If you feel like you have to pay points for an upgrade which your opponent can't do anything about just to win, then it's a cheapshot. I refuse to use Psychotrokes. As someone said earlier - "Just because you can doesn't mean you should". For a Tourny perhaps, but a pickup game? No. Both Codices do not need such things in their Codex. Special Character unique item maybe, but en-masse? Urgh. But then, places like BOLS who set out to break a Codex as soon as it's arrived don't help the cause (and I love the fact that they can't do it with Necrons).

In my experience, DEldar are far more "point, click, win". I will not hear any BS about them being "hard to use" and whatnot, because unless you take down all of the paper planes in one round of shooting, you've had it. They'll fly over to you, stay out of range of your infantry and pound the crap out of your squads before moving on, the Ravagers having taken down the ranged AT. And that's hard to use is it? I think not.

edmundblack wrote:Special Character unique item maybe, but en-masse?

How can you use psychostroke en masse? Only the GM, the techmarine and the OXI can carry it. Unless you mean taking all 3 of them or 3 of a kind (3 x OXI, etc). I agree that would be overdoing it.

considering that you can get a full 2 of 5 FOC slot choices this upgrade and can add those guys to any of the other 3 FOC slots. yep its pretty en-masse

Wow, people really run these kinds of combos?!?

So the issue is spamming...how is this different from the other kinds of spams (ie 6 psyflemen dreads, 6 or more razorbacks w/ only 3 henchmen inside, etc.)?

I just don't agree with the generalistic view that "If you feel like you have to pay points for an upgrade which your opponent can't do anything about just to win, then it's a cheapshot." Because if one thinks that having one model carry psychostroke grenades is going to automatically win the game, then that person is in for a big disappointment.

A lot of people consider the 5pt psybolt upgrade to the dreads really cheesy as well. Does that mean you have a cheesy list just because you're using a psyfleman dread or two?

edmundblack wrote:
In my experience, DEldar are far more "point, click, win". I will not hear any BS about them being "hard to use" and whatnot, because unless you take down all of the paper planes in one round of shooting, you've had it. They'll fly over to you, stay out of range of your infantry and pound the crap out of your squads before moving on, the Ravagers having taken down the ranged AT. And that's hard to use is it? I think not.

Well thats a remarkably simplistic view of the army. Lances are basically missile launchers against 95% of vehicles, which means a pretty low chance of doing anything without mass spammed fire. In this edition lances cost 2-3x what a missile costs and are far less available.
From a pure noob perspective where no one has any skill you could say they are point and click, but thats just assuming you have a gameplan turn 1 of rushing your opponent, in which case you either win or lose on your first round of taking fire.
That being said all armies are probably either point and click or sit back and shoot with this analogy.

Against opponents who can split fire, depending on your cover rolls your probably going to be destroyed. Each vehicle destroyed generally also does massive damage to the occupants, unlike 3+ save armies who can shrug off vehicle explosion damage.

Unless your a good player, any other good player with a top tier army, ie GK, SW, BA, IG, possibly even Crons will give you more than a run for your money thanks to the inherent survivability advantages. You can either outplay them or lose.

Also considering a ravager is about the price of a dev squad, with less anti tank ability, much easier to kill and the only advantage being mobility, but with only a 36" range, if they are devastating your anti tank (which against DE is anything with a S4 or better gun) then your probably doing something wrong.

Pretty much all DE heavy weapons are 36" and almost all the infantry guns are 18"/rapidfire.
From a GK perspective, you ignore FNP in combat, can pretty much guarantee a dead plane per Psyfleman, and can outshoot almost anything they have if your in range. The mobility 'issue' is probably the only thing keeping DE from being totally useless, seeing as how the codex was pretty much designed using marine design principles, without the 3+ save, without duality in most units, and without proper special weapon load outs for a 'xenos' army.

TLDR if you have trouble with DE, particularly as GK, either your opponents are much better than you, your army list is really terrible and theirs is optimised, or you just don't know how to counter them.
So I'm calling the 'BS' about point and click. When you consider the gulf between imperial and Xenos codexes its almost laughable.

I guess we could say that the whole mobility/transport thing is an unfair advantage for the DE codex and say that people shouldn't spam it, like people use Psychotrokes?

i played a strike squad/techmarine combo once and wont do it again if i field psyrifle dreads. so far the "cheese" list i created was undefeated and that for very good reasons:

if you got a 10 man strike squad with 2 psycannons, justicar with hammer and a techmarine with psychostroke grenades & rad grenades you will be having a unit that can hold objectives exceptionally well sure this unit costs 360~ points but for what those guys can you get pretty nice benefits. they can dish out good mid range fire and thanks to the techmarine and good objective placement you can most likely hold one objective with a 3+ cover save. you got warp quake to scare off enemy deep strikers and you get 2 hammerhands leading to a strength of 6 for the GK/techmarine
IF those guys get charged 66% of psychostroke grenade results are devastating for the enemy in close combat.

the heaviest results are :
2: i hit the enemy automatically and the enemy only gets 1 attack each
3: i get rerolls to hit against the enemy
5: the enemy strikes at I5
6: we dont really have to talk about this one do we?

sure 360~ points is a lot but for a unit that will most of the time hold its objective in 66% of the games but in said 3+ cover it will stand there for a looooong time and will also scare off enemy attackers considering the damage they can dish back even if they get charged. and also in killpoint games you can use this unit as a pretty nice allrounder.

combine those units with things like psyrifle dreads, interceptors and the like and you have a army that can adapt to any playstyle pretty well. especially thanks to the GM and his grand strategy wich allows us to take fewer troop choices than most codizes and concentrate more on the killy stuff. looking at for exsample space marines at a 1750+ pts games with just 2 troop selections is almost a guaranteed loss for them considering you just have to deal with only 2 scoring units. a GK player can just use 2 troops and get additional 1-3 scoring units that are far better than the troop conterparts. its the combination this new codex of ours got to offer in addition that every unit on its own is pretty good.

necrons also got nice combos but if you destroy one link in this combo you let them fall apart like a cardhouse.
and no... razorspam with 3 acolytes is not cheesy. a razorback can get shot down quick and if that thing explodes you almost killed those 3 acolytes also. making objective holding pretty hard for them in addition to be easy killpoints.

Brother Souba: Pretty sure you meant "strike at I1" for number 5