victories of the space marines

i was going to get this as it has some greyknight action and a good cover
but after reading this review on amazon a little disturbed
"The Ecclesiarchy is revealed as a vast instrument of human sacrifice. A man chosen for his innocence is ritually sacrificed - no secret, hidden rites for a select few, this ritual involves a cathedral full of priests - while a cardinal informs him this happens across the Imperium . All so a single Grey Knight bolter round is blessed. In the same story it is shown that psykers, including children, are transported en masse to be incinerated in giant furnaces, in a manner explicitly parallel to the transport and slaughter of Jews during the holocaust, to make Grey Knight armour. GW have just had a massive launch of the Grey Knights for the tabletop game. Given that their armour is made in furnaces using children as human fuel and their weapons have to be literally drenched in innocent blood to work I wonder how many people who play, or whose children play, will be comfortable with that. "

i have this book i havent gotten to the gry knight story yet but the other short stories are good soem are about the heroic space marines while some are about renage marines

hardrainfalling wrote:i was going to get this as it has some greyknight action and a good cover
but after reading this review on amazon a little disturbed
"The Ecclesiarchy is revealed as a vast instrument of human sacrifice. A man chosen for his innocence is ritually sacrificed - no secret, hidden rites for a select few, this ritual involves a cathedral full of priests - while a cardinal informs him this happens across the Imperium . All so a single Grey Knight bolter round is blessed. In the same story it is shown that psykers, including children, are transported en masse to be incinerated in giant furnaces, in a manner explicitly parallel to the transport and slaughter of Jews during the holocaust, to make Grey Knight armour. GW have just had a massive launch of the Grey Knights for the tabletop game. Given that their armour is made in furnaces using children as human fuel and their weapons have to be literally drenched in innocent blood to work I wonder how many people who play, or whose children play, will be comfortable with that. "

Completely changes your perspective huh? It goes in line w/ some of the background fluff in our codex...GK's turning their swords on the Sisters of Battle so they can use their blood mixed w/ holy oils to put on their armor to protect them.

Bottomline is, the GK's have become the grown man's Knights in shining armor. Gone is the romantic, teen-age ideal that the GK's are pure, good heroes that will protect innocents and save the day. GK's have a job to do, and they will do it no matter what the cost or what they have to do, end justifies the means so to speak. If innocents have to be sacrificed to empower their tools in the fight against daemons, so be it. In the bigger scheme of things, I guess you can call the sacrifices trivial. Is it moral? Heck, morality is not even in the equation

It is a difference between beeing a grown man's knight in shining armour, and openly conducting blood cult warding rituals in the true spirit of Khorne's deciples.

I totally agrees that Gk shouldn't be all nice a huggy, if there is civilians on a planet where a warp rift occurs they will say "-Tood bad." And have their strike cruiser bombard them from space if deemed necessary.

Not go into the towns, drink their blood and paint their armours in a blood orgy while chanting things from dark tomes which is the impression i'm starting to get.
TOTALLY NOT COOL!

That's something khorne berzerkers do to improve their psychic defense, grey knights are above the use of simple blood rituals.... at least they shuold be.

That is indeed very Grim.

i dont mind the inq being ruthless they had become somewhat saintized in recent years but the blood rites smack too much of chaos for me

rendering down pskyers who will create a risk for psy ammo that i can see and was always in the fluff

I found the sacrifice of sisters for psychic protection to be rather dubious and pathetic in the new codex. Doesn't really make all that much sense.
That being said GWS loves the shock factor, and their authors really aren't all that good at the best of times. I mean seriously? The GK needed the extra protection to complete the task? They are uncorruptable, or they aren't.

I don't really think Grey Knights have ever fitted the Knight in Armour theme, Knights have honour and morals, thats the entire basis of the concept, GK don't. GK are more Paladins, religious zealots with force of arms, who often put the greater good and the destruction of evil before any other consideration.

Plus anything put in a BL novel isn't exactly set in stone fluff, most of the SM writers take great pleasure in absolutely destroying the fluff and information about anything NON-SM which is really a shame. That being said very few of the novels I have read are even worth the paper they are written on, I just feel the writing style to be action/thriller, but totally lacking in Mathew Riley's writing ability, occasionally mixed with a bit of background/fluff that in a few cases really enriches the 40k universe, rather than just being a novel where one guy or a squad kill a few thousand enemies.

On the parrellel between the holocaust and something in a 40k novel..... I honestly never get tired of people who feel the need to add these kind of comparisons. I guess in a way the Grey Knights are the Israelie Nation and all the innocents they kill while destroying daemons are the Palestinians. Yay aren't parrellels fun. Don't they really add something meaningful to the conversation! (//SARCASM).
Some things just need to be let go.

true many BL authors are dreadful only a few like Dan abnett have any talent
I have always seen the marines as nazis in space, the space wolf novels help make them more likeable but the majority are arrogant killing machines.
I have always liked the idea of the Grey knights being totally ruthless to protect humanity against a worse fate but at a terriable cost

Zealadin wrote:GK are more Paladins, religious zealots with force of arms, who often put the greater good and the destruction of evil before any other consideration.

I can't agree more. I think that the "historical" foundation for the GKs are the Holy Knigths of the Crusades conducted during the middle ages by the Catholic Church. While these knights where viewed as "Champions of Good" by the church, their historical merits leaves a far more bleak trail of death and destruction.

I think the previous incarnation of the GKs only managed to capture the "Champions of Good"-aspect of the Crusaders, while the new edition, puts far more emphasis on the "Merciless killing machine"-aspect.

...So it will be interesting to se if the Inquisition terminates the Grey Knights as heretics in the next edition of the Codex, just like the real Inquisition eventually did with the Crusaders... how that would surely spark some nerd-rage

LOL!!!!!
I LOVE these conversations!!!

The WHOLE 40K Universe is built on concepts of intolerance and closed mindedness, why are you only noticing this now?

If the emperium of man was to have focused its crusade on the unification of all races and the sharing of knowledge, rather than the anhialation of all non humans. The aliegences built could have potentially defeat any threats that Chaos, tyranids, or Necrons etc... could throw at them, and we would all live happily ever after. But that wouldn't have made for a very interesting tabletop game would it

IMHO if you feel that GK fluff is unacceptable for children, and that it is comparable to Nazi propoganda then you are VERY selective in what you see. If you are so concerned about what your children are being exposed to, why are you allowing them to play a war game in the first place?

I kinda like the whole dark feel to the GKs, it is congruent with all of the other not so nice stuff that the empirium does to the lowly humans that they are apparently protecting

Just my 2 cents worth

Its definitely disturbing to think what is done just to get an advantage in War but nobody should ever think War is gonna be pretty or fair, if killing millions to save billions is the only option then its almost necessary. Just a thought.

purifier_26 wrote:Its definitely disturbing to think what is done just to get an advantage in War but nobody should ever think War is gonna be pretty or fair, if killing millions to save billions is the only option then its almost necessary. Just a thought.

I agree with you.
It's just interesting that we never think of the "good guys" doing things like sacrificing inocents to bless a bullet, or burning inocents to forge armour...............

I just get concerned when people start to get all excited about this kind of thing and try to justify the reasoning of these actions, rather than keeping it in the fantasy context that it belongs in.

Its funny because it was written by someone that didn't do a whole lot of background in the other grey knights books an then writes something so controversial. I just think as far as the fantasy part goes it should be based on what comes out of the codex an for people that take it past the fantasy part an start to justify it should step back and actually think of the consequences that would come with doing something like that.

Constantine wrote:
I just get concerned when people start to get all excited about this kind of thing and try to justify the reasoning of these actions, rather than keeping it in the fantasy context that it belongs in.

Yea this can be the problem. Its just fantasy, there really is no justification from our perspective in a RL context because that breaks the moral and ethical code that most people live by. Even the people in our society who are basically allowed to kill - soldiers and to a lesser extent police are not allowed to take part in that kind of action (sacrifice for the greater good).

Its the same with alot of sci-fi and fantasy writers. Some like JK Rowling (sp) have a grey(ish) world but the good people never really cross any kind of line, ie the whole unforgivable curses stuff, and no one being able to defend themselves even though it meant their society and world being destroyed (oh no we can't kill the bad guys back). Then others its the total opposite where the good guys have to do bad things to get peace. Personally I generally find the good guys having to struggle not to become what they fight far more interesting, and realistic, but thats just me!
Its different writing and story styles, but neither are really in any way based on the truth, since the situations are totally made up.

Plus at the end of the day, the rubbish they put on TV now is almost worse than what is written about in 40k. Let alone whats out at the movies!!!

It's fiction at best, but another way of looking at it is that untrained psykers, at any age can open a rift into the warp and be a gate to the unrelenting armies of chaos. So, isn't that what the Ordo herectus is for, to seek and purge by terminating these possible threats? If these threats can be used to assist us in battle from extinction can be similar to human testing of millions infected to find a cure for an apocalyptic epidemic which could kill billions to save all human life on earth. Plus, if such drastic actions weren't taken and all has failed, what would happen to the remainder of the surviving population? Innocents proves nothing.