Are Grey Knights truly incorruptible?

A great conversation started over in the GK Codex wish list thread, and I thought that it warranted it's own thread.
The discussion started with wether or not the GK should/do/or shouldn't have Chaplains.
What are your thoughts Brothers? Do Go require the guidance of Chaplains, do they self monitor, are they infallible due to the Emperor's gene seed? Any pints of view are welcomed!

I would say not all are uncurruptible. Where the chapter and Inquisition has based  research, the model's fluff, and my knowledge suggest that more measure have been taken into Preventing corruption rather then making then uncorruptible.


For one thing the Librarians weed out potential corruption in aspirants

the purifier have proven to more pure than the average brother.

So it seems they take measure to prevent corruption rather make then uncorruptible.

It is entirely possible that even with ther purpose some may hold impure thought like fetishes, blood-lust, ambition, or have too much of a fondness of certain types of food.

Finally come there diverse and often dubious pre-training origins.

Great points brother! I especially like the purifier point you made. The very fact that they are considered "more pure" iuggests that regular GK are not 100%

Pretty heretical stuff eh?! None of this thread will be shared with the inquisition Brothers, so do not be scared to join in with the conversation.

Constantine wrote:Great points brother! I especially like the purifier point you made. The very fact that they are considered "more pure" iuggests that regular GK are not 100%

Pretty heretical stuff eh?! None of this thread will be shared with the inquisition Brothers, so do not be scared to join in with the conversation.

Excellent I honestly imaged them be more roguish doing things like sleeping like surfs, fighting with each other, a few may even enjoy killing civilians, or even stealing.

Personally i find the idea of the purifiers ridiculous.
The grey knights were created to be impervious to the corruption of chaos.

And they have been for a long time.
Not one has fallen to its lure.

But then in the recent codex, purifiers come along, with the premise that they are purer than incorruptible?

I don't get it personally.
And they are even described as being more proud than their brethren because of this?
Pride is a dangerous sin in 40k.

In my world, they are LESS pure than regular grey knights.
But i probably shouldn't join in on these threads, i'll just distance myself further from 40k with my distaste for the way the fluff is "progressing".

I say "progressing" since they are simply adding stuff without thinking, resulting in utter abhorrence in quality and sense. When often a much more fitting and equally aesthetic option was available.

You can say i was disappoint, and i have been since the middle of 5th edition, and i will keep getting disappointed with each update.
But that is me, keep having fun without me. I cannot be changed on this subject.

Klomster wrote:

In my world, they are LESS pure than regular grey knights.
But i probably shouldn't join in on these threads, i'll just distance myself further from 40k with my distaste for the way the fluff is "progressing".

More please...

Yes, don't be afraid to share. The whole force has changed quite a lot as the editions have rolled on, what with daemon heads hung in great halls, secret screams coming from the purifier halls, and GKs going into battle wielding daemon swords....

But the question remains.... Are they corruptable, and is there a need for Chaplains within their ranks? I believe that the testing for purity needs to be an ongoing task, not a one time deal.

Not one Grey Knight has fallen to Chaos since their creation. I agree that Purifiers being "purer" than their brothers is a bit ridiculous. Instead they should be more like zealots.

The closest I think any knight has come to falling is Alaric in Hammer of Daemons. Worn down by the daemons of the world he is imprisoned on he loses his sanity and becomes a mindless killing machine. But as soon as he regains his senses he rejects any notion of being a servant to Khorne.

The need for chaplains......I think is more an extra precaution rather than a necessity.

Purifiers aren't any more incorruptible than their brothers in my opinion. they simply have a greater drive to kill the daemonic.

for the ones that didn't followed the GK wish list topic : i'll resume my opinion :
imho, GKs ARE incorruptibles for 2 main reasons :

1/ they integrated and fully absorbed the Emperor's genes, the most powerful ones in the 40k universe. And as you all know (because it's present in the fluff since Rogue Trader) the geneseeds of a Primarch, and more withe the Emperor's ones purify the prospect in a cathartic experience that kill the weak and the corrupted. So the ordeals SM passe are one big filter and then there's the 999 ordeals to become a GK... I can't think of any subtle tweak of Chaos that could possibly pass that...

2/ The Faith !! Faith in the Emperor is the core of a GK, more than their psychic might that is just a tool. For me GKs aren't fanatics, they just have faith ... And it's the most powerful energy in the 40k universe !! just see what the Sisters can do with it without the purity of a GK. I think that faith in the Emeperor is as powerful as the faith in Chaos gods... why should the believers in the foul powers produce mightier energies than Emperor's ones ? the faith is the faith and it's the number of believers of Chaos gods that give them might !! Attack the beliefs of those misguided persons and you weaken the Chaos Gods themselves !

CQFD : GKS ARE truly incorruptibles !

Aubec

I still have a hard time with absolutes.
The Alaric example is a good one: he was corrupted for a while and then ok again? Whether it is for a while or for a long time... Corrupted is corrupted IMHO. Hense the need for Chaplains to bring these individuals back from the brink.
Another thing to remember is that NOT all GKs are the same, they are on a spectrum. Draigo is more resilient than an initiate for example. And why is only Crowe able to wield the daemon sword if not because he is more resiliant to corruption than his other brothers. The fluff even says that he struggles against the swords influence.

I love GKs, but believe that they have not fallen because of many factors, such as:
- their strong gene seed
- their rights and trials
- their faith
- their constant work at not falling.
All of these things would not be necessary if the GK were uncorruptible, they would simply just be uncorruptible. But that is not the case IMHO they have to work at it.

I am glad that you agree with me 😉

It also possible that their could be a more dubious reason such as the Inquisition goes as far is removing or medically alters their own brains (maybe tissue removal) to try to prevent corruption.

Just a possibility ans another reason why their taste's human emotion are so drastically dulled.

They've been buggering up the background on 'faith' for a lot longer than Ward has been throwing words down.

Even normal marines know that The Emperor isn't a god, just a psyker. That's been established in the codices back to 2nd edition. Of course, the faith of the human race gives The Emperor powers comparable to other major warp entities, but only the ignorant think of them as 'gods.' Belief is what shapes the warp, so a lot of belief can have paranormal effects, but its the believer doing it usually. The Emperor isn't guiding every sister of battle.

A lot of writers, particularly from outside GW, have marines praying to the Emperor like a deity. The way I figure it their 'faith' is in The Emperor as a man and his mission and the catechisms are a meditation, a way of focussing the mind, rather than pleas to a god.


The Grey Knights actually have to be very boring. I know Ben Counter's books run contrary to this, but I think of their depiction in Atlas Infernal as being closer to their background.

None of this is true but all of it is true.

Actually the Red Hunters chapter consider the Emperor a god.

Any definitions on what a God is?

In The Emperor's Gift they Red Hunters chapter appears called him the "God-Emperor" where Hyperion comment the oddity of space marines considering him a god.


Here
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Hunters

The Black Templar also consider him a God.

The way I look at it. And this is me personally no need to agree; but my thought is being a smart, and supposedly practical lot. Most Space Marine Chapters, (with the few exceptions) see the Emperor as the pinnacle of what man could become and at first treated him as such (mostly the first founding chapters.) But as even they are aware the warp is shaped by belief. And given how many billion upon billions of souls believe him to be a god some space marine chapters are starting to view him as such. Even some of the First and Second founding chapters are starting to pick up on this.

someone could have faith in an idea, an Ideal, not only on somebody or some Omnipotent/Omniscient creature...
For instance : do you know Jean Moulin ?... if not no worry !
This man, a former sub prefect of Lyon, was the head of all the resistant groups in France, during the WWII.
Finally and unfortunately he get cought by the Gestapo and intensively tortured during days nearly a week... But the man believed so much in his cause (freedom of France) that he only gave one name : HIS !!
so this man imho, had faith in an ideal (I love and respect a lot the guy, and always wonder if i could have, in the same circumptances, the same amount of courage... noone knows until enduring this i guess... )
Aubec

IF the GK are uncorruptible, why not share this "fact" with the imperium to increase faith and hope? Why not work towards using all available resources to make the GK the primary fighting force for the imperium rather than "squandering" resources on forces that are not guaranteed to succeed and are corruptable?

Because it's all the ordeals that have passed, all their transformations, all the psyker technics and all their faith that make them incorruptible !!
Aubec

Aubec le noir wrote:Because it's all the ordeals that have passed, all their transformations, all the psyker technics and all their faith that make them incorruptible !!
Aubec

Right! So share all of that with the other chapters and make the imperium invincible!!! GKs struggle because of small numbers... Make more and/or share what they do with others and put an end to chaos once and for all.

I certainly think the Grey Knights could draw more recruits from the Space Marine chapters. EG Inquisitorial ships drawing a tithe from the Space Marines of their most promising recruits for "extra training"

Great idea!

But I still feel that the question about GK being uncorruptable or not has not been answered.
What do you guys think?

There has been no force so far that has corrupted a grey knight.

Seeing what they have been up against, there is probably no force that will succeed either, not before they have been destroyed by outside hands.

So yes, they are practically incorruptible.

IF the GK are uncorruptible, why not share this "fact" with the imperium to increase faith and hope? Why not work towards using all available resources to make the GK the primary fighting force for the imperium rather than "squandering" resources on forces that are not guaranteed to succeed and are corruptable?

That would mean every deviant with a desire or grudge would know about the warp and the fact that they can in fact start a cult and get what they want. Its not like demon cults don't exist in real life, and that's without surety that they work. Humanity can't be trusted with knowledge of chaos and so can't be trusted with knowledge of the Grey Knights.

Also, if people started believing that daemons exist it would empower them, on account of the warp reflecting belief. A world of skeptical minds is safer than one where the populace know the daemonic to exist. At least until on of the daemons pops into existance, then that 'not believing in anything until you see it' stops being a defence.

As far as using the Grey Knights as a primary force- the hive fleets will stomp them flat. Quickly.


If the Knights have Emperor DNA then they're pretty safe from corruption from the outset- he's the embodiment of order and incorruptibility.