Librarians?

Scotland Army List
PLAYER 5: JAMES "BOLLOGS" MEIKLE ARMY DESCRIPTION : GREY KNIGHTS
HQ1: Ordo Xenos inquisitor(25) Power armour( 3x servo skull(3*3) psyker(30) hammerhand(0) exchange chainsword for forcesword (0)
Rad grenades(15) Psychotroke grenades(15) (102)
Elite0: Henchman warband: 10x Deathcult assassin (10*15) (150) in transport1 1
Troops1: Grey Knight terminator squad(200) five additional Terminators (5*40): 7 Terminators: Halberds (0), 2 Terminators: Halberds (0) and Psycannons (2*25), Justicar has Master-crafted (5) Daemon Hammer (0) (455)
Troops2: Strike squad (100) psycannon(10) (110) in transport 2
Troops3: Strike squad (100) psycannon(10) (110) in transport 3
Fast1 Stormraven (205) Typhoon launcher(25) Hurricane bolters(30) (260)
Heavy 1 Dreadnought (115) twinlinked autocannon(10) Twinlinked autoncannon(5) psybolt ammo(5) (135)
Heavy 2 Dreadnought (115) twinlinked autocannon(10) Twinlinked autoncannon(5) psybolt ammo(5) (135)
Heavy 3 Dreadnought (115) twinlinked autocannon(10) Twinlinked autoncannon(5) psybolt ammo(5) (135)
Transport 1chimera (55) searchlight(1) (56) [ELITE 0]
Transport2 razorback (45) psybolt ammo(5) Searchlight(1) (51) [TROOP 2] Transport2 razorback (45) psybolt ammo(5) Searchlight(1) (51) [TROOP 3]
Total 1750pts

I can keep posting 'em all day? There won't be any librarians. Want me to get the nova ones ?

I would like to see the NOVA lists. But all I see is spam.

One sec ill get em, I thought I proved my point already.

Arratak what is your problem?

Pyriel eloquently put forward a well constructed argument as to why he thinks Librarians are a decent unit. Your delusions of grandeur on almost every thread I see you on are really starting to irk me.

Just because someone is disagreeing with you doesn't mean you have to resort to aggressive, immature ranting.

And by the way...
Expensive, not expansive.
Raise, not raze.
American, not Emerica

I could keep posting 'em all day. Less hardcore stink eye wargaming and more learning essential skills like how to spell properly.

My argument was well put. With, evidence mind you, that no one in a competitive environment, especially in the top level of play, uses librarian, and I quote: he did say he was strictly talking competitive becuase casual play you can do what you want- and that's fine, info what I want in casual play aswell. Test new things, play ridiculous things and what not, the fact that he comes in with more eloquent literacy doesn't mean he said it nicely, he was taking a stab and there's nothing else to it. He's points were well written, however 1 mans personal experience is not the "meta" for competitive play!

I don't want to start a war, but you can't jump on the bandwagon of someone else just becuase he writes nicer words. With 1 personal opinion.
Infact I didn't even flame him.

In fact now you've just ticked me off! This is why I don't post on these army list forum threads. People can't handle the truth.

And before you go ahead and tell me I'm a jerk, I know already. Thanks, I'm not burning I can't handle it. In fact, I give up. Forget it.

Where in his post is there even the most meager hint of "taking a stab"?

The "evidence" you present is less relevant than you might think - the "top level of play" is at one end of a very wide spectrum and accounts for an extremely small percentage of the general scene. Just because something isn't viable at that level doesn't mean it isn't else where.

I'm not jumping on any bandwagons - I see some one putting a well formed argument together (which I may or may not agree with) in a POLITE and RESPECTFUL manner. Then I see condescending, snide and venomous remarks in response, all of which is totally unnecessary.

The disclaimer in your sig' doesn't give you carte blanche to act like a jerk. If that were the case I'd wear one in public that says "Hot women, I will cop a feel of your wobbly bits. Deal with it."

K bro.

Can we take the temp down and please return back on topic thank you and for futur as I have states if you have a problem with some one or how they have spoken speak to them with a pm thank you

-Arratak- wrote:My argument was well put. With, evidence mind you, that no one in a competitive environment, especially in the top level of play, uses librarian, and I quote: he did say he was strictly talking competitive becuase casual play you can do what you want- and that's fine, info what I want in casual play aswell. Test new things, play ridiculous things and what not, the fact that he comes in with more eloquent literacy doesn't mean he said it nicely, he was taking a stab and there's nothing else to it. He's points were well written, however 1 mans personal experience is not the "meta" for competitive play!

I don't want to start a war, but you can't jump on the bandwagon of someone else just becuase he writes nicer words. With 1 personal opinion.
Infact I didn't even flame him.

In fact now you've just ticked me off! This is why I don't post on these army list forum threads. People can't handle the truth.

And before you go ahead and tell me I'm a jerk, I know already. Thanks, I'm not burning I can't handle it. In fact, I give up. Forget it.

Your argument was well put. His was as well. The best disagreements are the ones where both sides have good points. i would like to see your counter to his posts, but have you used his tactics for the librarian? If you have and they didnt work tell us what happened and why it didnt work. Saying the top guys in nova doesnt use a librarian doesnt mean anything to me, a refutation of the tactics he laid based on experience would. At any rate, his argument gave me a different perspective on the librarian and i now wish to include one in my army. At the very least i can test it in a friendly environment and decide if the idea of a librarian in a torunament build has merit.

Thanks for the post. I dont have a librarian but now i feel i need one for my army. What is your tactic for warp rift and shrouding with a transport?

Warp rift is not a "tactic" power. You need to build your list around stormchickens or landraiders to fully utilize this one since the flame template needs mobility and I dont do that. Only with Mordrak does this one really shine.
However warp rift is simply amazing as a flexible power for 5 points not to take it.
If your libby happens to be in the middle of a mech park or close to some heavy hitting necrons then it is worth far more then it´s 5 points plus in many games it often comes down to desperate tricks as dangerous deepstriking, often you have no choice due to a hard game and in those situations warp rift is worth a lot.

Instant removal of low "I" enemies like beefed up nec lords, ork melee hevvies and auto penning any vehicle the template touches cause people to be scared and thus make mistakes when they have seen what amount of expensive leechguards etc that thought they could assault you you can remove for 5 points.

The meta changes, I dont know this but I suspect orks will use more meganobz now when they no longer move slow and have an incredible staying power plus basically counter other terminators outright. As the meta changes things like warp rift will increase in value.

Lol! Brother Pyriel's post made me want to ask him about builds with Mordrak, LRs, and SRs. Definitely a sign of a great post.

Mordrak sadly falls into the friendly gaming category. He is powerful for friendly games but still to much of a RPS (rock-paper-scissor) gimmic not to work in a cheesy against-all environment.

Mordrak does best against necrons and depending on the rest of the army, also orks but outright sucks vs dark eldar, eldar and most MEQ unless you really tool your army specifically against those.
A libby is also a must for mordrak, not for shrouding though but for warp rift, summoning and deepstrike (homing beacon). You put the squad right next to that destroyer lord with super expensive retinue and/or line them up for a multi warp rift on those two cannon boats and you basically won by the turn 1 but again, it´s a gimmick.


As for landraiders the GK have the best ones and the best means to use them.
The rule for landraiders is never to use one and never to use the redeemer.
The GK raiders have fortitude and warp quake to further protect them. You need strike squads in a GK LR army but using summoning on big things like raiders is not recommended.
6:ed is mostly about shooting (wait until the net Tau show up, oh boy) and I am toying with the thought of switching to an army built around shrouded raiders. The more helldrakes and oblits are being used the better lascannon raiders will be but I still dont think raider heavy GK armies will be the new thing in competitive play, fun yes but still to far from competitive.

+1 to Brother Pyriel. He really defended the Librarian very well.

But if you're going to put your Libby With your Dreads to give them better cover, why not run Techmarines which will do the same AND potentially restore hullpoints. They also have cheaper servo skulls too. BETTER YET why not use both?

For friendly games yes, for competitive play, not so much.
You are right that the tecchie will make the dreads last far longer BUT, this setup removes your key strenght, flexibility.
What will you do when facing armies where the dreads dont have much use against or no/few/to spaced ruins? The typical foot chaos zombie horde laughs at dreads (unless they spam fliers) and this means that in certain games your tecchie will just be a 100p free kill point or first blood thing since what else can he do?
Giving him grenades so he can perform other roles costs points AND also requires you to have built your army around that (meaning transports, melee squads and transport survivability).

The tecchie fits a certain and very narrow GK build and doesnt fit into a flexible "water" approach.
Then again what, except ruin saves (if your army is build to capitalize on those) can the tecchie add that the libby cannot? You can buy grenades that gives your melee unit +1S against an enemy for one turn. The libby gives your melee unit +2S or +1S, +10I every turn and the psychostroke grenades basically only have 2 favorable rolls out of 6. What good is having the enemy hit me with I1 when I fight against orks or necrons anyway?
Psychostroke is a random gimmick that relies on luck and works most by scaring your opponent, sanctuary works all the time often granting YOU the charge and denying your enemy it.

So give me your tournament list. And we'll see what you have.

I love how your like: yeah we have decent close combat units... When they get into combat. If they're not shot down by rapid fire
Plasma, demolisher cannons, battle cannons, artillery and dark eldar poisoned shots.

Take a deep breath and calm down.

you say that you love my decent combat units but it doesnt matter since they have a problem getting into combat.
Well, this sword is a double edged one. I likewise love your coteaz that gets you to reroll the shooting for one squad with 24´range...you know when the enemy allows them to get to within that 24´range without being shot up by demolisher cannons, battle cannons, artillery and dark eldar poisoned venom shots and lances. lol
See the point?

I can give you some tournament examples when I see that you can act in a mature way without throwing a tantrum when someone challenges your coteaz-is-best ego since I would like to discuss these things calmly and without childlish comments like "blah blah" or hypocritical things like "you suck because demolisher and DA poison shots will ruin you" (while "forgetting" that your own ideas suffer the exact same fates).
Your call:)

FRANCE ARMY LIST
PLAYER 4: Mathieu "throst" T. ARMY DESCIPTION : Grey Knights
HQ1 : Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (25), with Power Weapon (10), Servo-skull (3), Rad grenades (15) [53pts]
Elite 1 : 5 Purifiers (120) with 2 Psycannons (20), 1 Nemesis Hallberd (2), 1 Nemesis Hammer (5). Knight of the flame with Nemesis Hallberd (2) in Transport 1 [149pts]
Elite 2 : 5 Purifiers (120) with 2 Psycannons (20), 1 Nemesis Hallberd (2), 1 Nemesis Hammer (5). Knight of the flame with Nemesis Hallberd (2) in Transport 2 [149pts]
Elite 3 : 5 Purifiers (120) with 2 Psycannons (20), 1 Nemesis Hallberd (2), 1 Nemesis Hammer (5). Knight of the flame with Nemesis Hallberd (2) in Transport 3 [149pts]
Troop 1 : Grey Knight Strike Squad (100) with 1 Psycannon (10). Justicar with Nemesis Hammer (10) in Transport 4 [120pts]
Troop 2 : Grey Knight Strike Squad (100) with 1 Psycannon (10). Justicar with Nemesis Hammer (10) in Transport 5 [120pts]
Troop 3 : Grey Knight Strike Squad (100) with 1 Psycannon (10). Justicar with Nemesis Hammer (10) in Transport 6 [120pts]
Troop 4 : Grey Knight Strike Squad (100) with 1 Psycannon (10) in Transport 7 [110pts]
HS 1: 1 Dreadnought (115) with 2 twin-linked autocannon (10+5), Psybolt ammunitions (5) [135pts] HS 2: 1 Dreadnought (115) with 2 twin-linked autocannon (10+5), Psybolt ammunitions (5) [135pts] HS 3: 1 Dreadnought (115) with 2 twin-linked autocannon (10+5), Psybolt ammunitions (5) [135pts]
Transport 1 : Razorback (45), Twin linked heavy bolter, Psybolt ammunitions (5), Dozer Blade (5) [55pts] Transport 2 : Razorback (45), Twin linked heavy bolter, Psybolt ammunitions (5), Dozer Blade (5) [55pts] Transport 3 : Rhino (40), Dozer Blade (5) [45pts]
Transport 4 : Razorback (45), Twin linked heavy bolter, Psybolt ammunitions (5), Dozer Blade (5) [55pts] Transport 5 : Razorback (45), Twin linked heavy bolter, Psybolt ammunitions (5), Dozer Blade (5) [55pts] Transport 6 : Razorback (45), Twin linked heavy bolter, Psybolt ammunitions (5), Dozer Blade (5) [55pts] Transport 7 : Razorback (45), Twin linked heavy bolter, Psybolt ammunitions (5), Dozer Blade (5) [55pts]
TOTAL [1750pts]

And the point being?
You show me a number of old lists from 5:ed (2011) where the meta was all mech parking lot.

Here is where this list comes from:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=89314

And here is where the second army example comes from:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=89298

Both are from 2011 and not 6:ed. Cought lying red handed and still you persist.

Back then everybody and their grandmothers used 10+ rhinos/razorbacks/chimeras + attached MSU squads and it was dead boring. Back then the powerful things often used were parking lots of 5 purifyers in rhinos and 3-5 dreads behind them. Today with 6:ed these things are dead.
Nobody uses crowe, purifyers and rhino spam anymore, mech is gone due to transport nerfs and more foot/infantry heavy armies stand in their places.

Using these arguments against me is like me telling you how overpowered the rhino is by whipping out a bunch of rhino lists from 3:ed where space marines had skateboards.

Following this trend by reading people like JY2 or mercer on dakka shows the same thing, MSQ mech is more and more gone (except for the dark eldar who dont have anything else).
And...I still don´t see coteaz in there lol

But you have a point still. The libby is not used much (yet, 6:ed is still developing) due to the definition of competitive play.
Competitive play (what I play) is one thing but the most hardcore tournaments dont use that, they use ultra competitive play where few people play pure GK, pure chaos etc etc and in those settings where henchmen and IG water down the GK army, where few people play chaos without using deamon nurgle allies or unfluffy mixes of units and where necrons might be considered to be the shitz when it comes to allying with the GKs...yes, you wont see the libby.

My point is that "we" in here or at least 9 out of 10 of us DONT play ultra competitive games because those are n o t fun. I dont want to waste my eventing gaming against someone who tries to squeeze as many zombies into his 9 oblit army any more that I want to use my necron croissants together with my GKs or coteaz with my 72 stormbolter toting henchmen because thsi is no longer competitive, it´s beyond competitive and thus, not fun.

"We" in here want (I guess) to play either nice fluffy games or competitive in the sense they are still following some sort of sanity and purity. I take pride in using pure GKs without henchmen and allies and face the same opponents and then in this context I and my opponents gear out our armies to be competitive. Sure it still sucks to often face 3 helldrakes or croissants but at least we are pure, I counter likewise and I dont face power tournament crap like vendettas within the GK army.

Lets face it, how many in here would like to play NOVA style battles where most helldrakes wins? There are specific forums for those kind of tactic talks.

My argument was well put.

Sorry but it was not.
Quoting someone using "blah blah" reeks of great arrogance at best.
Counting up examples while forgetting your own ideas suffer from the very same examples points at best at thinking low about the intellect of your opponent and at worst at a lack of ones own.

Giving examples of old armies used in old metas to prove a point is also strange at best and can be equally used in countless counterarguments. I can whip out any list to basically prove anything I want by choosing from tournament metas in all editions.
Want me to "prove" that chaplains rule, you got it, it´s called salamanders 3:ed. Want me to "prove that librarians rule, you got it, etc.
See, these points are useless and will lead us nowhere.

Then again 6:ed is still in its adjustment mode and still being FAQ:ed up with the FAQs changing the meta on the fly (deamon zombie ally nerfs, helldrake buffs etc) so the 6:ed armies before the FAQ will n o t look the same as after it.

He's points were well written, however 1 mans personal experience is not the "meta" for competitive play

Thanks:)
Well my view of the meta comes from tourneys and meta talk with very good players that often go to said tourneys. I wouldnt be so stupid as to barge into this board claiming I know everything based on what I dreamt up all alone in my sleep mind you.

Test new things, play ridiculous things and what not

Do you assume that I have not done these things?
Testing new ridiculous things is part of the fun in this hobby as well as talking about them and sharing ideas with other people.

In fact now you've just ticked me off! This is why I don't post on these army list forum threads. People can't handle the truth.

And that you were the one who ticked people of first doesnt matter you?

People cant handle the truth? Ah, and you can? do you have a monopoly on it? I mentioned "arrogance" previously, please dont try to prove me right on this.
I´m sure you can retract your defensive claws and get back into the discussion in a more calm and mature way and I dont believe for a second you really mean that crap about being 100% right with everyone else not being able to handle the truth because the only people I have seen that act this way for real are uneducated, brainwashed religious fanatics and I simply refuse to believe you are one of those.

And before you go ahead and tell me I'm a jerk, I know already.

We have something in common then, I am often seen as a jerk too but here is the thing...maybe try not to be a jerk now and then huh? It usually leads to things like the exchange of ideas, mutual respect and who knows, maybe a new friend or two.

Being instantly "right" and calling other peoples opinions for "blah blah" rarely leads to the above but on the contrary, often people cement the opposite opinions out of spite, plus sometimes it makes one look like one is suffering from a fragile ego or a small penis...or both.

Where in his post is there even the most meager hint of "taking a stab"?

In his defense I just took a stab or two at him but in my defense I didnt mean anything bad with it, just a humorous pointer to please not do it in the future and I know all about it, I can be a real asshole myself now and then.

So Arratak, lets drop the posturing crap and talk like grownup people, I´m sure you have some good ideas as do I and in discussing them other people in here might actually enjoy catching an idea or two so this thread can be a fun learning pot for everybody.
What say you?



We could all have a discussion about the following HQs:
Master
Captain
Libby
champion
coteaz
inqs

And keep it in a "competitive" pure army setting but not the ultra ridiculous competitive crap used by the 0.5% of must-win-at-all-cost gamers.

Thanks Pyriel. Very well written post

Amen

I ask that you all respect the request made by Inquisitor Lord/the forum and address personal issues/differences in PM.

Perhaps we need to develop more specific terminology in regards to competative. It seems like this is an area that is getting frequently misunderstood.

-Arratak- wrote:Ok then pyriel, lets discuss this over pm's because we clearly should agree to disagree and I don't want to involve the good people of this forum in our heated discussion nor will I let you provoke me into proving you wrong with profanities and spam.

I assure you those lists were for 6th edition and there's actually a lot of lists with coteaz that I will pm you

+1
Thank you Brother.

Good Good adults Is the best way as I don't like banning people or kicking people but the need of the many will out way the need of few that's for everyone ! of I can put done one in jail in real life then I'm sure banning some one on a forum want bother me but as this community is I've never had to do that or come even close so let's keep it that way game on brothers


IL

Brothers Pyriel and Arratak please see you PMs

I am NOT impressed.

Sure.

So lets discuss the libby if anyone wants it.
I have extensive experience with this HQ so if anyone have any questions about how, when and how then let me know it.

I am interested to hear more about using the libby as a part of a fast hard hitting force. Deep striking, jumping NDK, LR, SR....

I am interested to hear more about using the libby as a part of a fast hard hitting force. Deep striking, jumping NDK, LR, SR....

This depends on how you want your force to look like. A libby is not suited for every GK build.

The libby can summon things to himself but this is not "competitive" as this means the libby must first DS into position before the rest of the reserves arrive and that is impossible.

But the libby can act as a powerful support and buff character enabling your other units to deepstrike into risky positions and do things your opponent did not expect.
Examples that I often use myself are having a unit DS far behind enemy lines to kill those pesky lootas or long fangs sitting there. Never expected by my opponent since this unit will be so far back that it can never take or threaten any objectives but as the libby advances or drives or flies forward he can at any time summon back the unit into the game/objectives later on.

As for deepstrike buff he has a homing beacon but this too relies on him being in a transport, the stormraven is perfect but an 18+ a turn landraider works too.
You zoom across the table and DS anything you like without scatter 6´from the ravens hull. This actually makes all those nice S6 incinerators useful for a change.
Good thing to do against the frequent zombie spam we see in the meta today.

You need to tell me more so I can give you a better answers.

Exciting possibilities
A LR, SR, NDK, Dread, and Terminators is about as specific as I can get for you.

A LR, SR, NDK, Dread, and Terminators is about as specific as I can get for you.

you are right but then again, what opposition will you face you think?
Points?
Terrain?
Home rules?
Your preferred play style?

This setup depends on these things.

You run a LR (lascannon I assume), 5 termies, NDK (gear?), SR, dread (weapons?).
That ends up around 1150 points if it is optimized for competitive game and not fluffy with ineffective wargear.

What else besides:
1 LIB
1 LR
1 NDK
5 termies
1 dread
1 SR
(more scoring needed)

Is summoning a landraider really worth it? I mean you still follow deepstrike rules, which means it could end up scattering. But mind that the homing beacon doesn't work with the summoning. If it's placed 6" away from your Librarian isn't it a possibility that the landraider will scatter into your unit? Also can you still summon a land raider or vehicle if it's immobilized?

Is summoning a landraider really worth it? I mean you still follow deepstrike rules, which means it could end up scattering. But mind that the homing beacon doesn't work with the summoning. If it's placed 6" away from your Librarian isn't it a possibility that the landraider will scatter into your unit? Also can you still summon a land raider or vehicle if it's immobilized?

You know what, I never thought about summoning imobbed vehicles (never happened to me or anyone else that I faced).
Probably this is a very simple thing if you read in the rule book and the codex (i dont have time right now) where summoning counts as a move and imobbed cant more but I am not sure about that.

As for the rest, this is what I already mentioned. Summoning vehicles is risky and I dont do it BUT I still take the summoning upgrade for vehicles since it is dirt cheap and often games end up very close with both doing desperate things in order to grab that last turn objective. You will be surprised how much you would like to summon that far away transport etc right next to your libby that is about to be charged to death or right onto that objective simply to contest it etc.

I summon NDKs frequently (big base) and am yet to suffer a mishap so maybe I will start toying with transports as well. You place it so its closest piece of hull is 5.9´away from the libby and you can only screw up if you roll a scatter that has the arrow into your libby and then roll 6 or more.

People scream that summon sucks but think about it for a second.

Scatter roll fails 66% of the times.
Then you need to roll 6 or less on 2 dice. Mathematically speaking you will roll a 7 on average so to simplify you have a 28% chance to roll a 5 or less on 2D6.
Then you have a chance of rolling a bad scatter direction. Lets assume we divide the scatter dice into 12 directions like on a clock.
Choosing the short hull edge of a raider means you will scatter badly on 3 arrow points out of 12 meaning 25% of the times.

To sum it up the chances of scattering into your libby (if he is alone) with a landraider are:
66% (scatter die)
72% (distance roll)
25% (scatter direction)
For a total of 12% so slightly more then once every 10 summoning attempts your raider will end up in/over your librarian. Less for a smaller vehicle like a rhino.
Not to bad if the game really calls for vehicle to me rapidly moved.

Well I like the logistics of it. Thanks for providing the mathematics. Yeah, summoning a vehicle counts as if it has moved flat out. I should test summoning as well, but I'd rather use teleporters on NDK and use Interceptors. I use Mordrak and Libby, but never purchase summoning.