So... any ideas about who we really are?

The emperor says:

-'OK, kids, we need a force to fight against chaos, some guys who cannot be corrupted'...

and GW says: 'OK, kids, The Emperor wants a force able to fight chaos, but, since we love chaos, we will make them only to fight demons'...

at least, they create awesome figures...

Yes, hope if gw makes a new release of deamonhunters it doesn't change the look of the minis, add a grand master with some weapon choices and add some more inquisitors.

The looks are awesome, but i hope they don't screw up some stupid rules or change some thing so you can't have more than one squad of grey knights and stuff.

That would be bad.

If it does come to that, I'll only fight friendlies with the current rules. (It's what I'll have to do anyway with my Legion of the Damned)

The eisenstein survivors couldnt become grey knights since not one single one of them was a psycher. Remember, GKs are in a sense all librarians. The GK books by counter tell that the very reason they are psychers is what shields them the most from corruption.

What are the GKs then?
We have only vague fluff to go on and logical thinking.
The GKs came to be after the custodians took of their armours.
The fluff also tells us that the GK armour is heavily inspired and built on the design the custodians themselves used.

Who were the custodians then?
Fluff tells us this:
First we had proto marines, those were marines in various stages of experimentation that eventually lead to true marines. They were altered only in strenght and mind and by not as refined processes. Often these people were the worst kind of criminals.

After the first "perfect marines came to be there was soem time of developement and the crusades started and marine numbers were sorely needed. The second marines were "made" by a very time consuming process but this was ok as it took place during peace time to fed the legions with their manpower.

As the crusade rolled on manpower became a pressing matter and the process of making marines had to be remade so that a man could become a marine far quicker. This is perfectly demonstrated in the HH series.
The tech was pure and true and not debased like the 30k tech so fully grown men could be altered into marines but this tech was not as wide spread in all legions as some could only make "kids" into marines.
Some fluff also claims the previous "time consuming marines that could be made from grown up men were better then the later "faster" marines).

Remember that even later on in the 40k age some of this older tech still remains. The black templars can create marines from fully frown men and dont have to rely on "kids".

Now for the funny thing.
Before marines came to be, true marines that is the emperor created his body guard.
Fluff tells us these are far far superior to "normal" marines and the interessting thing is that the emperor "made" these custodians from fully grown warriors that had proven beond doubt their loyalty to him.

This process was either unique and hidden by the emperor so that only his body guard became super strong and not other marines OR the emperor used his own geneseed in the making of a custodian. Both theories are equally valid.

Now on to the origin of the GKs.
-GKs came to be after the heresy.
-GKs equipment was based on the custodian equipment.
-Custodians were not psychers (they needed sisters of silence to protect them from psychers, fluff about this is found in the awesome HH art book series)
-GKs are ALL psychers and this is what gives them the edge in incorruptability.

The emperor needed an anti deamon force that could stand on their own without the help of the sisters of silence (those "dissapeared" but my personal opinion is that they were dissbanded and moved to serve under the newly found inquisition under another name in the black ships).

Nothing of the GK geneseed is known but the close ties hint to a process closely related to the one that created the custodian guard.
What is clearly obvious (using logical thinking) is that the newly found grey knights were trained by none others then the custodian guard.
Reasons:
1 Only the custodian guard were 100% free of taint, corruption and ulterior motives.
2 The custodian guard were masters of their own wargear and the GKs equipment was based on custodian gear.
3 Only the custodian guard had unpararelled experiance in fighting daemons and thus no other unit would be better suited then the custodians in training the new GKs in the way of the daemon.
4 Both factions were situated within the same star system.


This tells me that the GKs are the cusins of the custodes themselves. See them as a custodian second founding albeit much weaker then their parents but with their own potent abilities that the custodians did not possess.

Lets not forget the argument that Grey Knights may just be an army of Space Marine Psykers with special training and better equipemnt, much like say a modern army's elite force eg British SAS,American Navy Seals and Russian Spetsnaz.

Actually, I prefer to forget that argument... not for any logical reason whatsoever; simply because, in the long run, it's less fun. Besides, isn't fun the entire reason we care so much about our army's fluff?

Hey dont get me wrong but I think that that theory can be fun and still makes the GK special but for other reasons, which can also be fun to build on, such as the fact non have ever turned their back on the light, they are all psykers they are special, their is loads.

Pyriel, you seem educated in the early 40k fluff.

Your statements seem logical and thorough.

And the idea of Grey knights beeing Sas....

HERESY!!!

Sorry i personally hate that idea, they are way cooler and more elite than that.

I think i will think of Grey knights as Second founding Custodians.
Becouse only custodians, primarchs and the emperor himself is mightier than a grey knight!

(I skip aliens and deamons in this ladder of might becouse they often do not posses the coolness to oppose the coolness of grey knights)

i think GW leaves blanks in chapter history to allow guys to make their own fluff. my other army is dark angels and there is always the question about who cypher is. and how many primarchs are missing? bodies never recovered. its just storylines that we can add to.

Pyriel, you seem educated in the early 40k fluff.

Your statements seem logical and thorough.

And the idea of Grey knights beeing Sas....

HERESY!!!

Sorry i personally hate that idea, they are way cooler and more elite than that.

It´s cool dude
We all have our preferences, beliefs and wish-lists. I just happen to base mine on logic though it doesnt necessarily have to mean it must be the truth.

How many here have read the original Reals of Chaos stuff?

Where do the Iluminati fit into all this?

The illuminati doesnt fit in at all in the GK fluff (not entirely true).

The whole matter of illuminati is a debated one with some fluff telling A and some telling B.
In the Dark Heresy fluff for instance illuminati are not even mentioned and the "process" that makes an illuminati has it´s ends turned upside down.
However other direct fluff about the illuminati tell of them as being the ultimate "good guys" but for funs sake they have also been placed with a sinister agenda that is far from nice.

The really cool thing is that illuminati are hinted about in the very GK codex. The very leadership of the malleous might be illuminati influenced. If that is true it is a very good thing.

Well, as long as deamons are dying, i'm cool!

It says in the GK codex that the GK were founded in secret by the emperor himself during the heresy. so perhaps they were made after Horus turned (obviously) but not necessarily after his death.

Sorry to bring this back to life, I find all this stuff absolutely interesting, (especially stuck at tafe).

I think some of the most important questions relating to GK are:

Why are they uncorruptable?
Could they have come from the emporers gene seed or would a lesser source have done?
What kind of influence does the people chosen to become GK's have on their eventual character?

In the Grey Knight novel the GK's all have their own personalities, likes and dislikes, etc, and I've heard alot of SM complain about this due to their beleif that SM (and therefore GK) are not human at all. I have never understood this theory, but its hotly argued in alot of forums.

And funnily enough the typical SM players like to use sources to prove their arguements, often using a single line of fluff/lore as justification, while saying the rest of the paragraph on the same page stating something else entirely is wrong.... or trying to use something written in a BL novel over codex lore (which I find unacceptable).

But there seems to be two main areas of thought: Some people are naturally uncorruptable, OR anyone is corruptable, except perhaps super powerful individuals, such as the emporer and probably other godly figures (this seems likely as the eldar gods, who where really just a super powerful race where not corrupted, but instead where destroyed by the daemons).
Also alot of daemon lore states daemon 'gods' are just the most powerful daemons in existance that have evolved over millenium to be the most powerful, and therefore leaders.

Now if some people can be naturally incorruptable then it would seem from GK codex lore, that it would be related to having psychic abilities, and its possible the GK initiation process is simply to find these before the gene seed is implanted, creating a GK.

OR the strong psychic abilities are part of a impenetrable defence that a fully fledged GK has, combined with the benefits of the gene seed AND the matrix under his skin.

*Note: The matrix that all GK have of holy wards must certainly HELP a GK remain uncorrupted, but logically CANNOT be the only thing doing this job, otherwise, why not put them in all SM to avoid further corruption?

So to quote the latest batman: "You either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain" (not an exact quote, but awesome movie). Now is it possible that those who remain uncorrupted (normally, ie non GK) simply die before it happens, or are never really near the influence of corruption?

Personally I think its probable that there are unique individuals (possibly descendants of the emporer's line) who have a natural resistance (possibly immunity) to the corrupting influences of the warp and daemons.

Why? Well because the emporer wasn't corrupted, and surely the daemons would see corrupting him as THE easiest way of destroying humanity, one of the major forcing set against them.
Also there are other individuals in the universe who seem able to remain untouched by corruption, my example of this is the eldar laughing god, who also extends this protection to the souls of his harlequins. (And he is one of the last Old Ones in the galaxy)

The most logical answer is that they must have come from the emporer, OR a gene seed almost directly related to him, that was found to contain his immunity to the effects of corruption, the warp and daemons. Its certainly plausible that ONE of the primarchs or Custodes may have been found to have this quality, and therefore been used for the creation of the GK, (because lets be honest, why not make the GK super powerful like primarchs if they came straight from the emporer and are uncorruptable, it would be a win win situation?)

Also the personal strength of the individual who becomes a GK seems to be very important, only the most powerful ever finally become a GK, and succeed or survive long.
For this reason I beleive that some part of the individual must be present in the final product and that the people who succeed as GK are naturally people who would likely become hero's (not on the scale of the emperor or primarchs) naturally given the right circumstances.

I'm interested to hear what you guys think on this because in a few other forums I was heavily flamed by various SM lovers who claim a few things - SM aren't human, don't really have personalities, aren't at all based on the individual created from, are just killing machines, etc etc etc.

Now the way I see it is, GK are the best of the best, they are the people who would become Hero's, while SM are just normal exceptional humans who would do stuff well, but just aren't up there in the same way...

Sorry for the long post - alot of this is just conjecture due to me slowly reading the black library novels

Ok, stating this as a GK player on a GK forum is probably like shooting one self in the foot.

But i dont see GK as an "uber" form of the normal Space Marine. All Space Marine chapters have their own speicality and traits, and they are all bred to be heroes of mankind.

Space Wolves excel at ferocious close combat, Imperial Fists are natural beseigers etc etc.

Grey Knights are "simply" Space Marines that are bred, trained (and perhaps a bit more pimped out than other chapters) to fight deamons! Having psychic abilities is just part of this.

This is what all the old fluff states, and the new fluff has done nothing to change that. The fluff also clearly states that all Marines remain somewhat individualistic, adorning their armour with symbols of their home planet or adopting a "personal" banner. Dont make me go home to parents attic and start searching out the Rogue Trader books! ;0)

Welcome to the forums!

Hmm thats quite an interesting perspective, I've only been doing warhammer for about 8 years and can't say I've read any earlier fluff about the GK's.

I see GK as being better than SM, but like you say they are specialised, and as such their role in most conflicts is simply fighting daemons against which they excel.
Their better gear is due to the importance of their job, but the latest codex does say "surpassing even their brother space marines in skill and ability" so I have to admit I do see them as 'better' than SM, but thats both based on my own imagination of what I think a GK is, and my dislike for normal SM. Probably more of the latter.

They are also incorruptable, which certainly (in the 40k universe) is something unique and awesome.

I agree with the individualistic nature of the SM (and therefore the GK's too) but have come up against alot of abrasive SM players who seem to beleive that SM are some kind of killing machine gods, devoid of personality or anything excepting the driving force to kill and win.
I'd be interested to see some proof thats not the case just to prove them wrong

I think they took the emperors dna, added garros and qruzes gene seed and implanted it into some of the Custodians to make the grey knights. However they werent made officially til the second founding. Until then they were another branch of the Custodians.

There is nothing I ever came across that supports this, however, I always figured we were an evolution of the Custodian Guard who I also believe to be of the Emperors Gene Seed. It only makes sense that the Emperor in his infinite wisdom would make his personal guard the very best he could. The very best he had was his own Gene Seed.

I'd agree with this because we see how the daemon gods obviously viewed the emporer as the greatest threat in a long time, which brings the question why?
The fact he was able to make uncorruptable soldiers for his cause is certainly a clue!

Our gene-seed comes from the very emporers flesh himself it is metioned in Ben Counter's Novel "GREY KNIGHTS"

Battle Captain Nathaniel Garro
I suggest you pick up audio books:
Oath of Moment and Legion of One and read the short story The last Remembrancer in the latest Horus Heresy collection Age of Darkness.
From these I am fairly certain that Garro and Iacton Cruze are 2 of the original Grey Knight Grandmasters along with the 6 Astartes Malcador sends Garro to find. A friend of mine argues that since Garro shows no psychic abilities he didn't become a Grey Knight but I disagree because of the following:
1.In Thousand Sons Garro's primarch flatly states that he had forbidden psykers in the Death Guard. I believe that means no one was trained.
So Garro could be a latent psyker with no training.

2. Grey Knights are Daemon hunters and there are only two Space Marines that in the Heresy so far that have defeated Daemons.(that will give you a clue on the last recruit Garro finds who many believed dead.)

3. We all know from the Codex that the first Supreme Grand Master was named Janus (so one could argue that isn't Garro) The Codex also state that Grey Knights names are changed and they are given names of power so one can argue that one of the original eight's new name was Janus.
Janus was the two headed Roman god who is depicted with two heads one looking into the past the other in the future. Garro has this on his armor even after being tasked by Malcador.

What do you think ?