Relieving Lord Kaldor Draigo of his position

I have been thinking about Draigo's appointment as Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights a lot lately. I agree that his deeds show him to be more than worthy of the position, but the position has A LOT of responsibility and presumably tasks attached to it. I do not think that it is appropriate or possible for someone who lives in the warp to fulfill it properly, and as such I see the Grey Knights efficiency and effectiveness being compromised.

I am curious about your thoughts in two areas Brothers:

1. Should Lord Kaldor Draigo have his title removed? Why or why not?
2. Which Grand Master should take the position in his stead? Why?

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I will start us off:

1. I feel that Draigo should be relieved of his title until he is able to achieve a permanent presence in the material realm. I also believe that a new SGM should be appointed.
I feel this way because the Grey Knights need to be functioning at full efficiency given the gravity of their responsibilities. I understand that each company is more than capable of functioning alone, but there must have been a reason for the title of SGM to have been established, and as such duties and responsibilities which need to be fulfilled are going unattended. Draigo's contribution to the never ending war will not be affected by this loss of title, nor will he argue with the logic behind the decision because the decision is made with the greater needs of the Grey Knights in mind.

2. As to whom I believe should fulfill the role……… My vote is for Grand Master Mordrak.
He has a significant list of deeds, more than worthy of holding a title such as SGM. He has proven that despite facing great personal challenges/adversity he can remain true to the greater responsibilities of his order rather than pursuing individual goals. And his bond with his men is so strong that not even death can sever it, as is displayed through the presence of his ghostly retinue.

What are your thoughts Brothers?

Well we don't really know how long he has had the position since he's been in the immaterium for so long. But we assume it is a long while, and that they've managed.

I would definitely argue no, he probably does more than any other Grey Knight and while he may not be involved at a clerical level you wouldn't undermine such an important member of the order for that reason alone.

Also Mordrak has his own personal dramas going on that I think would prevent him from moving further up in a leadership role. I wouldn't say his current problem is a strength since it drives him for revenge.

How do we know they didn't make the role for Draigo due to his plight and the role he plays in the ongoing war on chaos? It may be that another temporarily takes his place when he isn't seen for a period, meaning it is assumed he has died, only for him to reappear.

I hear what you are saying Brother, and you have made some great points……but ……….

Wouldn't it be nice to have a SGM that is around? It's kind of like a space marine chapter not having a Chapter Master, of course they can function, but they are arguably better with one.

I was not envisioning Draigo sitting around signing documents and the like when I mentioned his unmet duties and responsibilities  More along the lines of what happens if a major situation comes up and Draigo is no where to be found? Like say for example if a certain box deep inside Titan's fortress needs to be opened  

As I said above, I believe that Draigo is more than worthy of the SGM title, but I do not see why it remains in place on a GK that is banished to the warp, and I do not see how it benefits the Grey Knights to maintain this situation and short themselves in regards to their structure of command.

Constantine wrote:

I was not envisioning Draigo sitting around signing documents and the like when I mentioned his unmet duties and responsibilities  More along the lines of what happens if a major situation comes up and Draigo is no where to be found? Like say for example if a certain box deep inside Titan's fortress needs to be opened  

Yeah but if Draigo is the only one that is even aware of this box, they wouldn't think to relieve him of his duty in case it needs to be opened   

Grandmaster Vicente of the 6th Brotherhood would be my choice to replace Lord Kaldor Draigo if it had to be done. His exploits are known around the Ordo Malleus and he is unrivaled as a tactician.

Do the Grey Knights need a Supreme Grandmaster?
The grandmasters are perfectly capable of organising themselves and the operational strategy of the chapter hasn't changed in 10000 years. The Supreme Grandmaster is a figurehead rather than a person who organises things.

The organisation is spread across the galaxy, often with single squads identifying and eliminating threats. It's almost impossible to coordinate such a force given the vagaries of warp travel and communication: justicars are trusted to do the right thing by themselves, with companies only drawn together in extremes.

@ Brother S: If there is no point to the position then why was it created in the first place? With the GK being so independently awesome they don't need a figurehead, so again we are back to why have a SGM? GK do not strike me as a force that has a position just because. I have read that GMs are like company captains and the SGM is essentially the chapter master.

@ Brother T: great point about no one else knowing! that's one of those conversations that hurts your head after a while. when the previous SGM died at the death guard primarch's hands, did he stop and pull Draigo aside to tell him all of the secrets of the Grey Knights with his dying breath?

I understand your point: what's the point of having a SGM if he's (almost) never around?

But still, I don't see why he shouldn't: he is the quintessential GK! Yes, there are the brotherhood champions, but they are not the same

I guess it is just the "stuck in the warp forever" piece that sucks, and throws everything off. Draigo is awesome and deserves to be the SGM, but not being around really takes away from it all and is unnecessary IMHO.

If the rules and fluff aligned there would be a minimum points level at which Draigo was able to be used to reflect him being drawn into the material realm by major Daemon incursions, but as it is we see him used without limit.

I guess it is what it is.

If there is no point to the position then why was it created in the first place?

Because Matt Ward wanted to create some kind of utterly flawless superhero Grey Knight and needed a rank to match. I don't think there was a supreme master before this codex unless you go back to Rogue Trader when the chapter was organised much as a codex astartes unit.

So I guess I am searching for answers that don't exist.
Damn my inquisitive mind, and GW's ineptitude.

Ask not lest ye be given answers.

I'm considering writing a research paper on shared universes, so by all means continue. It will be valuable evidence for when I'm comparing real world writer motivations with readers' attempts to sustain the internal logic of a fictional world.

Interesting Brother Sai. Is this for school, or for your own enjoyment?
The Draigo pieces I am asking about seem to be rooted in a lack of reasoning in which some of the fluff contradicts and challenges itself.

I'm trying to decide whether or not to make it a PhD proposal or just get on and do it. A PhD is a bit full on and it's hard to get a job at the end but on the other hand, what else am I going to do with my time? Apart from paint the 5000 models kicking around in my loft.

You think you've got it bad, you should see Trekkies trying to tie down exactly where Vulcan is.

LOL!!!!!
Thanks for keeping it in perspective for me

Vulcan was destroyed! They should have watched the new movie!

But yea I never tried or liked people tying the Grey Knight organisational structure to the way normal Space Marines work. I've always seen it as unnecessary - it's not how they work and the fluff has always been that way, and it's normally someones attempt to confine them to just another SM chapter. Not at all fitting of what GK do.

There are plenty of examples of really badass characters who aren't always around though.
Think the Sanguinor, or Astorath the Grimm, or even most of the Pheonix Lords (for Eldar).
All these characters have really important roles, but aren't exactly a mainstay of a force. They just go where they are needed.

I mean I'm not a fan of what Ward did to the GK fluff. In some ways it was stupid and over the top.

Okay Brother Z, Those are some good points about the Eldar.

As I said before, I am mainly concerned that the Grey Knight's highest ranking member, who holds the most responsibility, is the keeper/ guardian of the most secret secrets, is constantly up to his eyeballs in daemons, and is floating around in the warp unable to establish an objective or even accurate level of knowledge on how things are going in the material universe.

But that's just the way I think

It's a hard one.
On the bright side eventually his time stuck in the immaterium will end and he'll be able to be a full time SGM. Although it did have me thinking, there are comments about team not meaning much in the warp. What does this mean for him!

Great question! In the codex it describes how during his first exit from the warp following his exile he didn't recognize any of the Grey Knights around him, implying that a great deal of time had already passed.

Yes but in the Pandorax novel he's can stay on Pythos for a while, the whole campaign, without any problem ( well so i think i'm still reading the novel !...   )
Aubec   

Old Vulcan is still there in the 'Prime Universe.' I've visited in STO.
Now there is a 'New Vulcan' which is close enough to Earth to Skype. But then again, in the new timeline Kronos is now close enough for Kirk to ring Scotty's mobile while he's sitting in a bar on Earth.

Draigo, Draigo is a straightforward pawn of Tzeentch.

As Constantine said, keeping Draigo alive and in command really works out for the Chaos Gods should the Terminus Decree need to be used. Essentially, Tzeentch has made it so that the Grey Knight's precious secrecy has worked against them. Oh the irony. Just as planned...

Yes but in the Pandorax novel he's can stay on Pythos for a while, the whole campaign, without any problem

I think they're possibly following the Quantum Leap school of narrative causality.

Damn Tzeentch!!!!!! I have always felt that this is the Chaos God that posses the biggest threat to us!!!
Thank you for articulating what I have been trying to get at in this thread so well Brother Sai. Surely the Grey Knights and =][= have been alb to identify the potential for disaster here!!!!!!

If you guys are going to write about Pandorax can you please put it in a "spoiler box" I have not read it yet  

There is no way Draigo is a pawn of Tzeentch.
People attribute anything bad, possibly bad or partially good to some chaos gods intervention. For 40k writers it's just laziness, for some players it is just their love of chaos and the thought it can be responsible for everything.

Even if his banishment was engineered by some other power as a part of some great game, it doesn't make him a pawn, anymore than you would say Chaos is Draigo's biatch, since he lives in its realm and kicks its arse soundly.

I doubt it would make much difference whether Abaddon/Cypher kills The Emperor or Draigo turns off life support while Thawn/Cypher hold the line. Either the Emperor goes full Star Child and the Astronomicon goes down or he heals up perpetual style and gets back to the crusade in the midst of a religious civil war. Either way it'll be epic upheaval and imperial on imperial battles while the xenos move in for the kill

There is a part of me that wishes they would just move the timeline on 10 years for the fall/renaissance of man. Maybe one day.

Given time, Thawn will be the most experienced Grey Knight, if only through out-living everyone else but the dreadnoughts. Unless he actually does age.

I just think that Tzeentch's ability to lay plans which take millennia to come to fruition is too serious to overlook. I agree that Draigo is not a pawn..... But I do believe that he is part of a bigger game, Perhaps as a Knight, or bishop.

I am starting to see why Inquisitors are SO suspicious of everything and everyone

~Only in death does duty end.~

The reason the Grey knights would never appoint a new Supreme Grand Master is because (most likely) Draigo is listed as missing as apposed to deceased and would be a disservice to him to choose a replacement while he's still fighting. Its the equivalent of a coup d' eta; your current leader isn't leading as much as you'd like or not in the direction you would prefer so you give the position to someone else. An act I'm pretty sure is unthinkable to the Grey knights considering their powerful bond of brotherhood. These guys aren't rank and file soldiers, they're knights, warrior monks with their own sets of rules, traditions, beliefs and culture separate from the imperial doctrine and religion. If they believe he's still alive and kicking then they have no reason to relieve him of his rank and title, especially since the many instances where Draigo HAS popped back into the real world to give aid has them convinced he's not dead.

And lets not forget...

HE'S KILLING DAEMONS ON THEIR OWN TURF!!!!!!!!!!

regardless of the fact that the immaterium cannot truly be destroyed his struggles in the warp do have a result and consequence. Daemons are bound and formed by their own will, if they are ever destroyed whether in the real world or the warp it takes time for them to reconstitute themselves from their host Chaos gods, a span of years or decades for lesser daemons to full on centuries or more for the big bruisers of the warp. I'm fully aware time is fickle in the immaterium but even so he's causing a dent in the great enemy, whether we're fully aware of it or not!

lastly the title of Supreme Grand Master as a chapter leader isn't frivolous nor unnecessary, before his banishment and the previous title holders before Draigo a Supreme Grand Master was the voice of the Grey knight Chapter within the Inquisitional counsel. His current departure has required his Grand Masters to steward in his stead but he was the one the Lord Inquisitors had to go to first and foremost when it required them to ask for some Grey Knight muscle in their quests to route the corrupt from a disputed world.