1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

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1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by murhe on Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:47 pm

This list includes most elements I like to have in my army. Biggest compromise I made between Grand Master and Brother-Captain. I would also loved some deathcultists, but everything in list has higher priority. Also my wishlist includes shooty retinue for inquisitor. Canoness is not must to take, but I feel she highly increases effectiviness of seraphim unit and gives valuable two faith points.

Problem with the list is that there are few models. Only 12 troop choice models, 3 operative units with 2 transports and assassin surprise. On otherhand it is easy to protect. Troops can hide in or behind land raiders, use terrain. I would love to hear your opinions as my actual playing experience is so little.


GK Brother-Captain with psycannon and holy relic 121 pts
Canoness with jump pack, blessed weapon and bolt pistol 96 pts

Inquisitor with psycannon, power armor and psychic hood 95 pts
Temple Callidus assassin operative 120 pts

Justicar and 5 grey knights, one psycannon 200 pts
Justicar and 5 grey knights, one psycannon 200 pts

Veteran sister superior with eviscerator and 4 seraphims, one with hand flamers 152

Land Raider with extra armor and smoke launchers 258 pts
Land Raider with extra armor and smoke launchers 258 pts

This should be exactly 1500 pts.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by Zealadin on Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:07 pm

I'm assuming your using your LRs as transport for your PAGK which are going to be very vulnerable to enemy fire. The issues I see are your squads are too small and if your using the LRs to transport then incinerators are a better choice (just my opinion) for your PAGK squads.

I'd personally recommend going for some larger PAGK squads, and GKT's to go with your BC, but you need models that you personally like so that probably doesn't help much.

Your main issue for me is that you don't have enough troops. At 1500 points your relying on 2 units in the majority of your games, and those 2 units are too small to use effectively, even from LR's. The great benefit of PAGK with LRs is that you can bring the LR up to an enemy troop, block OTHER enemy units LoS to your disembarking troops with the body of the LR, and then open with storm bolter fire, followed by a charge. This can be absolutely devestating with say 7 or 8 PAGK in a squad, because thats 14 SB shots, followed by a flamer template, and then 21 str 6 attacks at WS 5, all in a single turn.

On the other hand you have the ability to use your PAGK squads as mobile 24" fire squads, they won't take down monstrous creatures but they are highly effective against most other troops. Once again however your PAGK are pretty highly vulnerable to enemy fire and its situational when this would be useful/possible.

With the littlest change to your list I'd recommend trying to free up 100 points to add 2 PAGK to each troop squad.

All this being said thats only how I play my GK's because I'm puritan at the moment, so if you can make that list work you then you should stick to it!

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by For the Emperor on Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:14 am

I think there could be a few changes to some units, to start off with;
The Cannoness could do with Cloak ST.Aspira to give a 2+ save/2+ Invlnerable (with faith)
The Seraphim need more numbers to weather a turn of enemy fire.

Grey Knight Brother Captain doesn't need a Pyscannon or Holy Relic, use an Incinerator instead. An Incinerator is much better than a Pyscannon when disembarking from a LR.
Also the Holy Relic cannot be used if you moved. (including in the assault phase)

The Inquisitor should use an Incinerator when disembarking from the LR. Also the Pyschic Hood is LD 8, if the BC takes the Pyschic Hood it will be LD 10. So I would swap them around.

Also Power Armour is good, but a jump from 4+ to 3+ for 10pts isn't great economy so instead take Artificer Armour.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by Coyote on Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:05 am

If you just gotta have the Callidus then you've got a good list. BUT if you cut out the Psyquisitor and Callidus then you'd have about 200 more points to mess around with allowing you to take more PAGK's and Seraphim. Just my two cents Smile

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by NemesisForce on Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:30 pm

I'm tending to agree with Coyote. Your model count per squad will always be too low mixing Inquisition with SoB's. At 1500 points I'd go with just one or the other.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by murhe on Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:31 pm

Thanks for your opinions and advices.

For the emperor, I see no point to make canoness more expensive. Ofcourse I would like to take the mantle and the cloack for her, but I am short of points already. Seraphim will be delivery system for canoness so there is no dire need for extra protection. Extra seraphim would be usefull and I should get more familiar with acts of faith to be sure to min/max unit size. At the moment I have just standard box of seraphim and living sait for canoness. I would like to know what is optimum size for seraphim unit or just enought to endure turn of enemy firing?

Good point Coyote about taking Callidus. Assassins just eats too much points from my list. I really really want to take Callidus, but I have to hear your voice of reason. With 200 pts I would get 8 grey knights. Unfortunately I am running out of knights.

When I remove inquisitor and callidus from my list I get 215 pts. With those points I may uppgrade Brother Captain to "naked" Grand Master. Then I may take two incinerators for 1st GK squad and transfer psycannon to 2nd unit. This costs 54 pts.

Then I will take two inquisitors with psycannons (50 pts each) and join them on 2nd GK squad so there will be 4 psycannons together. This is 8 model strong with 2 extra wounds (first non insta-killing shot are always given inquisitors untill they are wounded to minimize casualties).

There is 61 pts left according my calculations. I might take another knight for squad one so there would be GM, Justicar, 2 incinerators and 4 GK's. GM would there again take first not insta-killing shot to prevent casualties. I might want to save 2 wounds for melee, because this unit is not a retinue.

36 pts left and I am not sure what to do with them. Few ideas:
- Psychic hood to GM
- Emperor's Tarot
- Artifier Armor to inquisitor or both of them.
- Melta bombs to GM, squad 1 justicar or canoness.
- one extra Grey knight, unfortunately I have only 13 knights.
- Holocaust psychic power
- Something else?

This solution has one big flaw as it is changes my "water warrior" styled squads to fire and earth squads. My shopping basket will include near future few knights including one with incinerator, pair of terminators (for GM retinue). The second seraphim squad box is uncertain at the moment. I would like to second hand flamer and Maelstrom Games has cheap prices tought. My wife just might say something if there are coming too many orders.

EDIT:

P.S. Thanks for Zealadin. There are now incinerators and unit size is increased. Extra members are just not all grey knights. Some of them have extra wounds. It is sad that extra wounds are not as reliable as they were in 4th edition.

I am still working with 3 operative units with two Land Raiders. I am not sure do I still need second LR as 2nd GK squad becomes firebase. What you think if I change LR to dreadnought with missiles and lasscannon? I might get... Hmm... I have Inquisitorial storm trooper on shelf.. My "small only for painting GK project" is growing out of budget.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by Coyote on Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:39 pm

HMMM I SEE much more clearly now. The wife does tend to put a cramp on building the ultimate GK army Smile

I like the idea of putting the psyquisitors in the squads, but be careful since joining them to your GK squads may affect some of those snazzy GK special rules such as the shrouding.

I can't remember if it's been mentioned, but targeters would be a good add on.

If you ditch one of the LR's and add a Dread then I reccommend putting all or most of the psycannons in the "stay behind and protect the base" squad and put any incinerators you've got in the other. Just food for thought Wink

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by murhe on Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:38 am

Modified list:

Grand Master with tactical dreadnought armor, storm bolter and nemesis force weapon 145 pts. Will join in 1st GK unit.
Canoness with jump pack, blessed weapon and bolt pistol 96 pts. Goes with Seraphim.

Inquisitor with psycannon 50 pts
2nd Inquisitor with psycannon 50 pts
Both go to 2nd GK unit

1st GK unit, Justicar and 6 grey knights, two incinerators 230 pts
2nd GK unit, Justicar and 5 grey knights, two psycannon 235 pts

Veteran sister superior with eviscerator and 4 seraphims, one with hand flamers 152

Land Raider with extra armor and smoke launchers 258 pts
Land Raider with extra armor and smoke launchers 258 pts

1474 pts

Coyote, I have read and read GK special rules and I don't find anything that prevents them working after non GK IC joins them. Shooting, most psychic powers and assaults are targeted on units. In this case it is GK unit. Ofcourse I would like to know if anyone disagrees and why?

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by Zealadin on Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:49 am

Check out page 48 of the rule book, independant characters without a unit they are joinings special powers will not gain them, and may in some cases nullify the effect of these special rules, they show a IC joining a unit with infiltrate without the infiltrate rule as an example of what would stop the unit using the rule, so it would seem reasonable that the same -might- apply to shrouding, but that being said you would think that shrouding would simply be confered to a joining independant (non gk) character both lore and logic-wise.

If your using a firebase PAGK squad I'd swap the second LR for a Dreadnought with TwLLC/ML for the anti tank, and then you have points to add more normal grey knights to your squad in the LR, I beleive in a normal LR you can have a 8 man PAGK squad + a terminator model, so you could add 1 more, and have more points for upgrades. Maybe even some more seraphims, would would probably help their survivability.

I don't personally find many of the GK upgrades all that amazing, the icon is overpriced (considering most its used on already have a 5+ invuln), but having say psycannon bolts on justicars or GM/BCs with SB's isn't bad, and maybe some psychic powers for your GM, Holocaust and Word of the Emporer are the ones I see as being most useful, although Holocaust requires ALOT of prethought in that you need to be able to place it on the model using the power, while avoiding as many allied models as possible.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by murhe on Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:34 am

This is bit offtopic, but lets examinate bit GK special rules.

1st. Term grey knight refers units mentioned pg. 20. (Yes, Stern is Grey Knight, because he is brother-captain even he does not have special rule: Grey Knight).

2nd. When we check each individual GK special rule we will find exact moment to use it.
-The Aegis works every time an enemy psyker uses a power that targets a grey knight squad or character and requires a Psychic test.
-The Shrouding works each time an enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights.
-Fearless, Grey knights all fearless.
-True Grit works when GK has storm bolter and power armor.
-Deep Striking is for Terminators, Hero or GK Teleport attack (squad).

3rd. There are not mentioned in whole Codex that GK unit looses GK special rules, because non IC joins GK unit. For this reason unit has GK special rules, but they are neither granted for IC

4th. Targeting is based usually unit level. This means enemy shoots GK unit and checks for shrouding even there non GK IC. If Vindicare temple assassins decide to shoot non GK IC in GK squad the shrouding does not work ofcourse as he is not targeting GK squad.

Charging and most psychic powers are targeting against units. Even in charge situation where charging enemy is able to get contact with non GK IC in GK unit and attacks may only made against IC, the charge is done against GK unit (not against single IC). For this reason may activated Rites of Exorcism (if assaulters are daemons) and pack mentality will keep IC fearless even if he does not have fearless special rule.

I just checked these from Codex and Rule Book. Let me know if I have maid any mistake or missed a point. For me this just seems to be clear thing.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by Zealadin on Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:03 am

If you look at the entry for Independant Characters you will notice it says:

"is an independant character and follows all of the rules for characters in the warhammer 40k rulebook."

Then in the rulebook page 48:
"Unless specified in the rule itself the unit's special rules are not confered upon the character"

So unless shrouding specifically says it will effect any models that join then it doesn't apply. (It doesn't)
Also you'll notice that fearless is a universal rule, and will apply to any joining model when the unit is fearless. (as stated in the rulebook)

Also Stern is a Grey Knight Hero/Brother Captain (whichever way you look at it), so therefore he does receive all the special rules.

Check the codex on page 20 @ Grey Knight Terminology

Of course any psychic powers used by the squad will also include the IC though,

Personally I think shrouding is so weak that it shouldn't be an issue in most games.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by murhe on Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:21 am

So unless shrouding specifically says it will effect any models that join then it doesn't apply. (It doesn't)
You are right in this part. My Inquisitors are not going to have The Shrouding special rule.

If I understand your next logical step, you assume that whole unit looses The Shrouding special rule. This is incorrect. Some cases unit will loose special rule when presence of IC prevents special rule to work. Rule book uses infiltration as example. Jump packs would be good example too, because with them unit is entitled extra movement distance. If there would be IC without jump packs, whole unit must walk together as unit moves at speed of slowest model.

In this case of The Shrouding, the joined IC does not stop it working Why? Because unit of Grey Knights does not become anything else. Enemy must target my Grey Knight squad and that targeting starts The Shrouding effect. The presence of IC does not affect The Shrouding rule in anyway.

The opposite example is Brother-Captain hero joined in inquisitorial storm trooper unit. BC would keep The Shrouding, but it would not be any use, because enemy firing is targeted against IST squad (and they does not share The Shrouding special rule.).

Also Stern is a Grey Knight Hero/Brother Captain (whichever way you look at it), so therefore he does receive all the special rules.
Check the codex on page 20 @ Grey Knight Terminology
I just said the same. He is Brother-Captain and BC's are Grey Knights as writen pg 20.

/OFFTOPIC

I will count possible varitations in list with only one Land Raider including Dreadnought with lascannon and missile launcher. For some reason Plasmacannon and missile launcher feels appealing even I don't believe it is very effective. Meaby because scattering blasts are very effective in Warmachine.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by Zealadin on Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:51 pm

Sorry I thought you said Stern didn't count, I see what you meant now rereading your post.

The way you stated it is actually a very interesting interpretation of the rules, which I can understand, and does sound legal.
I'm still a bit dubious whether all game masters would agree though.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by Rivan on Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:00 pm

I'm inclined to agree with Brother Murhe's interpretation. Since Shrouding is not covered under universal rules, the codex is the ultimate source. And nothing in the codex says a GK unit would lose shrouding if an IC joins the unit.

This is in contrast to WH where an IC or faithful unit that can use faith points CANNOT use it if any unit or IC without the Adepta Sororitas special rule joins them. But nothing says their Shield of Faith won't work in the same scenario. Just my two cents...

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by NemesisForce on Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:26 pm

I tend to agree with Murhe as well. The question for me though is not wether the GK's lose Shrouding but does the IC benefit from it? Can IC's join Tau stealth units? If so, is there any ruling in that codex?

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by murhe on Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:19 am

NemesisForce wrote:I tend to agree with Murhe as well. The question for me though is not wether the GK's lose Shrouding but does the IC benefit from it? Can IC's join Tau stealth units? If so, is there any ruling in that codex?

I cannot say anything about Tau as I am very unfamiliar with their codex.

IC does not benefit directly from the Shrouding, but result is the same most of times. In very special cases such as Vindicare or Culexus assassins there are exeptions. Both of them are able to target individual model in unit. Vindicare uses marksman special rule and Culexus uses Psyker Assassins special rule. If either of them chooces to give a shot against non GK IC (lets say my Inquisitor), there would be no protection being part of the unit.

Any psychic power that targets individual model and ignore GK's of the unit could ignore the Aegis rule in similiar way.

I admitt being a rules lawyer. Tought, friendly one. Bending rules for me - or my army - is not in my interest. I just keep playing by the book even odds are against me. Learning all the tricks of this old codex is interesting challenge.



Ok. Back to my list. If I remove another Land Raider I have totall of 294 unused points. There is left in my shelf a Dreadnought, 16 Ist troopers, a Chimera, assassins (Vindicare, Eversor, Culexus and 6 deathcultists) and collection of henchmen.
- I would like to take two hellfire Dreadnoughts. Two of them would be beatiful sight. I just have a one.
- I might upgrade another inquisitor with retinue of Heavy Bolter servitor, 2 sages and 2 mystics. There would be room for a hellfire Dreadnought. This turns my army in asymmetric firebase and I would not like it. I just like to have paired units.

I think I have met the limits of my list. Thanks for everyone.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by Zealadin on Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:21 am

In the interest of argueing FOR the ability to use shrouding on a squad joined by a non-GK unit (ie my interest Very Happy) I'm going to have to agree that it is possible for 1 reason alone.

Shrouding isn't so much a rule as a psychic power, that like the eldar harlequin version is always on (and requires no tests)!
Its not something their armour does but basically a active psychic power which they project, and since the justicar (or BC) becomes the focus for psychic powers used by the squad it is basically a psychic power that will include any joined models.
For this reason I wouldn't say units which can specifically target a model would be able to ignore the rule. Its either there all the time (unless another psychic power removes it or the enemy unit is immune to psychic powers) or its not there at all, while the IC remains part of the unit they would always benefit (or they and the unit can't use it ever).

I'm not sure all game masters will agree, might be worth getting in touch with the rules boyz infact.
It also might be clarified over on the B&C forums.

I think the main thing to keep in mind though is that shrouding is so weak and so rarely of use that most fair opponents wouldn't begrudge its use in this way.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by NemesisForce on Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:20 am

In this case I agree and think dropping a Land Raider might be a wise idea. You definitely need to free up some points to add some more bodies. Replacing the LR with a Hellfire Dread leaves you enough points to field almost all your IST's. Loosely based on the models (I think) you have, I'd personally run a list like this:

B-C w/psycannon 91pts.
Inquisitor w/power armor and psycannon 60pts.
Canoness (as you have) 96pts.

Callidus Assassin 120

Justicar, 6 x Grey Knights (with B-C and LR) 175pts.
Justicar, 4 x Grey Knights, 2 x psycannons (firebase with Inq.) 200pts.
8 x IST's, 2 x special weapons? 100pts.
8 x IST's, 2 x special weapons? 100pts.

Seraphim (as you have) 152pts.

HellDread 140pts.
LR 250pts.

16 points left over.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by murhe on Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:05 pm

Thanks for your list NemesisForce. Our list are very similiar. I would enjoy playing yours too.

Two units of IST are fine choices. At start they just feeled so soft, but any shooting at them is away from my precious knights. At the moment my troopers are armed with flamers and veteran with combiflamer. Granade lauchers would probably be more flexible for marching IST, but these go with flamers anyway. This also double troopers in list!

Lets calculate final variation.


Grand Master in tactical dreadnought armor with NFW and storm boter 145
Canoness with jump packs, blessed weapon and bolt pistol. 96

Inquisitor with psycannon 50
Inquisitor with psycannon 50

4 Seraphim, one of them with hand flamers and veteran sister superior with eviscerator. 152

6 Grey Knights, two with incinerators and Justicar. 220 (previously I had miscalculated them to be 230 pts).
5 Grey Knights, two with psycannons and Justicar 225 (same problem.)
7 Inquisitorial storm troopers, two with flamers 80
7 Inquisitorial storm troopers, two with flamers 80

Dreadnought with twin-linked lascannon and missile launcher 140
Land Raider with extra armor and smoke launchers 258

There is 4 pts for fine tuning and is used to give frag granades to Canoness, targeter to inquisitor and searchlights to dreadnought and Land Rider. Exactly 1500 pts.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by Rivan on Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:13 pm

I like this list a lot Brother M. Well rounded and pretty flexible. That's a pretty hefty fire base w/ the 2 inquisitors (I'm assuming they might be attached to the GK squad w/ 2 psycannons...actually better than a P-squad because of the extra wounds).

A possible consideration for 2 pts is also an auspex for one of the inquisitors or for the justicar of the psycannon GK's. 12 free STR6 shots can pulverize any infiltrating squads you might be able to detect (again, assuming the 2 inquisitors are attached to the psycannon GK squad). But it's a toss up b/w the searchlights coz they can be pretty useful too. Just my two cents...

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by murhe on Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:42 pm

Rivan wrote:I like this list a lot Brother M. Well rounded and pretty flexible. That's a pretty hefty fire base w/ the 2 inquisitors (I'm assuming they might be attached to the GK squad w/ 2 psycannons...actually better than a P-squad because of the extra wounds).

A possible consideration for 2 pts is also an auspex for one of the inquisitors or for the justicar of the psycannon GK's. 12 free STR6 shots can pulverize any infiltrating squads you might be able to detect (again, assuming the 2 inquisitors are attached to the psycannon GK squad). But it's a toss up b/w the searchlights coz they can be pretty useful too. Just my two cents...

Yes. Inquisitors are going to join 2nd GK squad with psycannons. Auspex might be good choice against certain enemies. Targeter and searchlight from dreadnought might be worth of dropping.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by Rivan on Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:59 pm

Yup. Probability wise, there's only a 33.3% chance you will have night fighting scenario (if I'm not mistaken) but there's always a chance for infiltrators in any mission or scenario.

If you're like me in always trying to maximize shrouding range w/ my maximum shooting distances, then the targeter might prove more useful than the last searchlight. That's just me though.

Sometimes, I wish our LR's and dreads come standard w/ smoke launchers and searchlights like other everybody else's Sad

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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by Zealadin on Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:10 am

Our smoke launchers are alot better than everyone elses though

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by murhe on Tue May 05, 2009 4:05 pm

Ok. At the moment I am finishing my army so it will ready next saturday when I try to challenge someone from local club even they have themed the day for Infinity and boardgames. I have plenty of time in nightsift and very little work to do so I am modeling my dreadnought and inquisitorial storm troopers.

I converted my dreadnought to step bit higher. I also make plans if I could build magnetic missile launcer add to close combat arm. Ordinary missile launcher is bit boring and I really like close combat arm. I am naming my dreadnought as Goliath.

At Work In Progress forums Doghouse has made german style helmets for his guard I started to copy the idea for my IST. There will be 17 of them (I used parts of 3 men for my acolytes). 4 of them are with flamers. Veteran has bolter. So I will be able add there few men with plasmas or granade lauchers. Probably they will carry them on back so they could also mimic basic troopers if I want to.

I have already based my grey knights on cork. So there are not much to do with them.

I need to build another inquisitor from Dark Angels veteran parts.

My scratchbuild land raider have been ready for several months.

Unfortunately I am unable to have space marine jump packs for Seraphim and Canoness so they are just going to be glued on bases.

I have only painted my land raider and few knights. I should take some pics when I have extra time. Tought it is hard to find, because I have year and 5 months old daughter.

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

Post by Zealadin on Wed May 06, 2009 2:01 am

Sounds great, at least you know what progress you want to make!

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Re: 1500 pts mechanized DH with seraphims

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