GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

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GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Rivan on Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:15 pm

Hey guys, can someone give me the real deal on the GK chapter's organization? I always understood them to be a "special" chapter that is organized differently from your standard Adeptus Astartes chapter. However, I've read from different sources, Imperial Armor Vol 2 included, that they are also comprised of 10 companies, that each company maintains their own vehicles, etc. Kinda confusing coz I know our Brother-Captains and Grand Master don't fall within the same categories as a SM Captain or Master. We can't use apothecaries or chaplains or librarians (not in the game anyways). I know for fluff or story line purposes, we still have them (eg Chaplain Durendin) though...

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Klomster on Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:39 pm

Well, the only things i know is this.

The Grey knights chapter (nr 666) is composed of 3000 grey knights, about 1000 of theese are terminators.

Due to their low number and special needs (or rather other organisations special needs) they are formed into smaller fighting formations ranging from small squads led by their justicar to strike forces of several squads and vihicles led by a brother captain or a grand master.

They are scattered accross the galaxy but most are stationed near the eye of terror.

Grey knights doesn't need librarians becouse every single grey knight is a psyker, what's the point of having dedicated psykers when everyone else is also a psyker.

Grand master is a rank in the grey knights chapter, not a position like the other chapters.
When another chapter has one master of the chapter the grey knights have several individuals that are skilled enough to bear the title of grand master, their rank so great that every one is a member of the inner circle of the inquisition.

I might be wrong on some parts, then correct me if i'm wrong, but this is the current view i have on the malleus ordo miltant.

Hope it helped.

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Rivan on Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:52 pm

Thanks Klomster. I've always thought along the same lines. I just got confused when I read article that say the contrary. For example, on page 215 of IA Vol 2, it says "each of the 10 companies of GK have their own dreadnoughts..." You would think something released by FW is official info. Anyways, maybe they'll make a more definitive and clear histoy with our new codex, whenever that arrives Smile


Last edited by Rivan on Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar correction)

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Klomster on Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:57 pm

Well, i'm not certain, and the grey knights could be composed out of 10 companies.

But i doubt it, especially as it sais so in our codex.

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Zealadin on Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:31 pm

Yea from what I have heard is that we are not organised the same as normal SM chapters due to much smaller numbers, the way we are stationed across the universe, and many other reasons.

This being said GWS is pretty lazy (esp lately) when it comes to GK's

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Andarius the Red on Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:00 am

I would like to believe that forge world to be the more up to date with information since our codex may show much of our story line and significant details, it doesn't show all of our information, especially since the Daemon Hunter's codex focus is on Inquisitors and their forces and not Grey Knights in their entirety. Imperial Armour tends to show more on the specifics of whatever subject they are dealing in ie. the Red Scorpions, Death Korps, and several campaigns and world histories there in. So i would consider their books to be more reliable.

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Rivan on Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:14 am

That's a good assessment Andarius. I love my IA Vol 2. So much detail on the vehicles and aircraft. That's why I thought it was confusing the way they mentioned 10 companies of grey knights. Sounds like a standard chapter organization to me...At the same time, other sources say no one really knows how many grey knights there are because they are scattered all over the Imperium...

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Andarius the Red on Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:23 pm

Both bits of information would be considered true since they are a full chapter and any information about the "where"' and "how many" would be undisclosed to any who would ask. (mind wiping is very common)

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Zealadin on Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:18 pm

I would be VERY dubious about the IA source, simply because according to the lore GK dreads are very RARE (unless they mean tact Dr. armour), and there are NO companies. It is comprised of squads who can be lead by the various leaders, from a justicar, through to a GM, according to the highest rank present and exactly what conflict they are involved in.

The codex is ALWAYS considered the most accurate and best document for this kind of arguement, and seriously considering how the IA is put together its highly likely some SM freak who has no knowledge or interest in GK is trying to sideline our army by making them just another SM chapter

For no other reason than that the codex directly contradicts this I wouldn't use the IA as a accurate source.

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Dark Bjoern on Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:51 am

Itīs not uncommon that a dread belongs to a specific company, normaly the company that the warrior had served before.
And thereīre companies within the GK. Index Astartes II, p.41 says that the GK have a 1st Company which is trained in the use of the Terminator Armour. The 1st is our Veteran Company like in any other Codex chapter. But GK companies donīt operate as such very often. Normally they will be splitted in smaller task forces and spread over a large operation area. Only under rare circumstances a company will gather and operate as such. Last time this had been during the 13th Black Crusade.

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Coyote on Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:46 pm

Well I don't know if you'd call it an accurate source, but then again it's all fiction so "reliable" is relative, but I used this site for fluff education:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights

Contrary to what most have previously posted, I think the Grey Knights are one of the larger chapters. Due to their need to be available any where any time they are spread thin.

Just my two cents...

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Rivan on Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:51 pm

Hmmm, interesting. I think it does make sense that there may be 3000 GK's or more. Since our organization is structured differently, and as Coyote said, we are spread all over, it would seem there are very few GK's in the imperium.

Dark Bjoern: Were you referring to when the GK's showed up to banish Angron back into the warp? Or was that Armageddon? I know there was an incident when the GK's showed enmasse to fight Angron, the primarch-demon prince.

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Zealadin on Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:03 am

Dark Bjoern wrote:Itīs not uncommon that a dread belongs to a specific company, normaly the company that the warrior had served before.
And thereīre companies within the GK. Index Astartes II, p.41 says that the GK have a 1st Company which is trained in the use of the Terminator Armour. The 1st is our Veteran Company like in any other Codex chapter. But GK companies donīt operate as such very often. Normally they will be splitted in smaller task forces and spread over a large operation area. Only under rare circumstances a company will gather and operate as such. Last time this had been during the 13th Black Crusade.

Sorry to niggle and nag, but...........
The codex says that Gks are defined within SQUADS not companies.
A larger force of GK is simply a collection of squads led by a BC/GM, or possibly just a Justicar/Inquisitor. (this is necesary due to the way they make war)
GK in Termi armour are not specially trained, they are simply GK with the highest level of skill, who have survived a long period of time and are particularly strong with their psychic powers. They are granted Termi armour almost as a reward.
In this way GK do not 'train' Termies, Termies are simply the best and most powerful of the GK who are not BC/GM.

To quote the codex page 7 "Unlike almost all other Space Marine Chapters, the Grey Knights do not follow the tenets of the Codex Astartes in the matter of force organisation"
It even states that they move through squads according to their training/acheivements, rather than joining companies.

Seriously please don't try and use SM literature to prove a point, especially when it directly contradicts the GK codex.

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Dark Bjoern on Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:16 am

@Coyote: Thatīs the problem. The Index Astartes article and the Codex are both from GW but theyīre contradictory to each other. GW changes the background with each edition and every source.

@Rivan: That had been the First War for Armangeddon. 100 Terminators under the command of Brother-Captain Aurellian teleperted in to fight Angron and his bodyguard of 12 Bloodthirsters. Only 10 Terminators survived the fight. It was an old WD, but donīt ask me which UK/US issue it was, i have only the german one.

@Zealadin: I donīt reffer to SM sources. The Index Astartes article was about GK. And it is from GW. Just see my answer to Brother Coyote. The problem lies within GW. Thatīs it. I could tell dozens examples for that, i have nearly every codex since Rouge Trader and what was that way in the last īdex is different with the next. I had stopped long ago to wonder about that. Sometimes iīm not pleased about the changes but i canīt do anything against it.

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Zealadin on Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:35 am

Sorry I just get really defencive, because I often get people telling me how Gk's work because of their SM knowledge or stuff like "GK are just another SM chapter" which i absolutely HATE with a vengeance. Razz

The GWS stuff is sadly very contradictory

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Dark Bjoern on Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:39 am

Zealadin wrote:Sorry I just get really defencive, because I often get people telling me how Gk's work because of their SM knowledge or stuff like "GK are just another SM chapter" which i absolutely HATE with a vengeance. Razz

The GWS stuff is sadly very contradictory
Donīt worry, Brother Cool . I react the same way when it comes to Space Wolves geek .

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Rivan on Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:40 am

@Dark Bjoern: thanks for the info regarding Armageddon. 90 GKT's lost to banish Angron and 12 bloodthirsters huh? Wow.
@Zealadin: i know how you feel. for that same reason, i totally don't mind that PAGK don't have dedicated transports, or that we don't have jump packs. as you said, we are not just like any other SM chapter. although i know the main reasons is for game mechanics and fairness. wouldn't assualt PAGK be really devastating?!?

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Zealadin on Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:17 am

Yea, well hopefully our teleport assaulters will get a nice change next codex to be a bit more competitive/reliable.

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Klomster on Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:49 am

I've heard rumour that gk (or more specifically, deamon & witchunters) will be made only by forge world.

Just a rumour though, it would seem the most accurate considering gk aren't really gw's biggest army.

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Rivan on Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:52 am

As long as we can still play GK in standard games and tournaments I guess. But FW stuff are usually more expensive Sad One other rumor I heard was the new codex will be for all Inquisition: Malleus, Hereticus and Xenos.

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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Klomster on Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:00 am

Yes, i've heard that one too, been a while since last though.

This one is more recent.

Hopefully we will just get a faq of doom that gives us revamped shrouding and rites of exorcism rules but they forget the force weapon so that it still does the good old "awesome kill" thing which ignores immune to instant death.

That would be fun.

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Rivan on Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:02 am

That would be the bomb. While it is very unlikely, it might be possible. You know, all this time, I didn't even realize our AC is way weaker than the SM AC. Or did they fix that w/ FAQ? Is our AC really only heavy3? no rending?

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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Klomster on Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:13 am

I think that was fixed with the book wargear.

But i think that got unfixed in the new rulebook.

(Don't tell anyone but i usually cheat, playing it as heavy 4 rending ; )

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Rivan on Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:16 am

Well, nobody's called me on it. I really thought it was just like SM AC. And my SM playing opponents probably thought so too....Smile

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: GK History and force organization...the REAL DEAL.

Post by Klomster on Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:21 am

Hehe, we're so naughty.

Playing with 5th edition assult cannon with our totally useless abilities, considerably overpriced units and imba hard shrouding.....

Seriously, should anyone care?

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