+BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

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+BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by The Legionnaire on Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:05 pm

Battle Brother: The standard Grey Knight. Equipped not only with the famed Aegis suit, the standard armament of a Grey Knight includes a wrist-mounted Storm Bolter of perfect craftsmanship and the Nemesis Force Weapon. Each weapon is unique to its owner having been attuned to his particular psychic signal. They can take the form of a Halberd, Sword, Axe, Hammer, Mace, Maul, Scythe or even a Morning Star. Newly accepted battle brothers will be inducted into fresh squads led by a Justicar, eventually developing their abilities in leadership, weaponry, psychic ability and armed/unarmed combat. Upon demonstration of above average ability in one of these areas they take their place in either the assault Teleport, heavy Purgation squads or become Justicars themselves to lead new batches of recruits.

Justicar: Justicars are the leaders of the latest recruits to the Grey Knights - although it should be noted that such recruits may have been fighting the Emperor's foes for up to a century. This is the first step on the path to becoming a Grand Master. Justicars also lead Grey Knight Terminator squads, although such leaders are usually referred to as 'Brother Captain' (more detailed below).

Terminator: Like all Space Marine Chapters, the battle-brothers wearing Terminator armor are the elite of the Grey Knights. In addition to possessing greater armor, they also use their psychic powers actively as opposed to passively in combat. They also have the same special weapons options - incinerators and psycannons (although they are wrist-mounted rather than two handed) - as their power armor-wearing battle-brothers but some exceptionally strong Marines may wield nemesis force hammers and storm shields.

Brother-Captain: Usually the leader of a Grey Knight Terminator squad, he may also be the force commander. Like his brethren, he wields a Nemesis Force Weapon in combat, and also possesses considerable psychic powers.

Grand Master: The highest rank attainable by a Grey Knight, a Grand Master is - by virtue of his esteemed rank - a member of the Inner Conclave of the Inquisition. A master daemonslayer, the Grand Master always wears Terminator armor and wields a force weapon in combat, and is also a powerful psyker. Few, if any, Daemons have been able to stand against a Grand Master and survive. The death of such a powerful defender of the Emperor's will is always mourned by the Grey Knights and the Ordo Malleus - though no common citizen will ever know of him. Due to the amount of experience, and enemy heads, needed to become such a warrior, Grand Masters are typically ancient, millennia old, marines.

Information Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Knights

NOTE: If you feel anything is missing please PM me.

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by kimx1636 on Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:39 am

Do not forget that the Grey Knights also have chaplains, they carry the same charge as any Brother, but also have duties to attend to concerning his brothers purity, and does things such as lead them in prayer.

This information comes from the Grey Knight book.

His duties are a bit assumed, since the book covers it very very little. It does however mention that the chaplain is distinguished from his battle brothers by having his right power arm painted black.


(hopefully he will get added in the next book :3 Untill then, one could say that a justicar, or brother captain is a chaplain leading the forces or some such.)

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Constantine on Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:06 am

The bottom right of this picture says it all Very Happy

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4nzgPbHlNo4/Sbxgb1YPWwI/AAAAAAAAEZw/ouzJfg-1lJk/s1600-h/Armageddon%2520Grey%2520Knights.jpg

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+++"There is nothing in the arcane and blasphemous arsenal of the forces of Chaos that can compare to faith. With the power of faith, our weapons become shining instruments of deliverance that can cleave the mightiest daemon in twain. With the power of faith, our minds appear as slivers of pure agony to the daemon, driving into the wretched forms of those who would dare stand before us. With the power of faith, our words become commands that cause the daemon to cower and cringe in terror. I could meet my enemies unarmed without a shred of fear in my chest, for I know that the Emperor watches over me and guides my hand. So let them come. We shall show them what the power of faith can do."+++ (Brother Captain Stern)

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by kimx1636 on Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:36 am

Yeah I know, but this was known before that picture Razz


Also, here is the maker of the picture! Check out his other art! affraid

http://sttheo.deviantart.com/

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by NemesisForce on Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:22 pm

I'm thinking GW should set aside a few bucks to pay this person to do the future DH codex. If they don't, I will.

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Rivan on Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:09 pm

@NemesisForce: I'll even chip in. He's really good. BTW, I've come across the acronym MEQ...can't figure it out, what does it mean? Thanks.

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Zealadin on Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:43 am

kimx1636 wrote:Do not forget that the Grey Knights also have chaplains, they carry the same charge as any Brother, but also have duties to attend to concerning his brothers purity, and does things such as lead them in prayer.

The author of that book is held in very very low regard by the really hardcore GK players, as he doesn't follow the GK lore very closely, and can be said to take a very SM'eque approach to them, as well as making up contradictory lore in his book than what is accepted from more puritanical GK sources.
That being said in this case I think that the GK's would have the chaplain position stated in his book even if it purely a more ceremonial placing for veteran GK's in the vaults of titan, keeping the tombs well cared for and recording the histories of the GK (for surely knowing the past successes and faults of their brothers would be an important venture).
Unfortunately the use of the word chaplain in the book was probably not the best idea, (any other rank with a more GK nature would have been accepted) and has led to the author being blacklisted by alot of GK players who follow the lore closely.

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Constantine on Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:22 am

@Zealadin.
I have not heard of this "black listing" of the author. Just out of curiosity (WATCH OUT CAT!!!affraid ), what other liberties has the author taken? Suspect

Personally, I think that a Grey Knight Chaplain is a fantastic idea all around. I know that we are not anything like a SM force, but I do not believe that having a Chaplain in any way threatens our autonomy from the SMs.

I have the utmost faith in each and every GK, but even the unshakable faith a GK weilds does not just happen overnight. It would take training and dedication to develop, and who would be responsible for this?

I believe the points of importance you listed for a Chaplain such as; "knowing the past successes and faults of their brothers" are pretty much the teritory of not only chaplains, but every GK. So in that sense you are correct, the GKs do not need a Chaplain. However, There still needs to be adherence the the "rules". We can not have all of the GKs individually interpreting what faith is and how it should be applied, there needs to be structure, and structure needs to be maintained. Brother Captains, and Grand Masters are definatly qualified to fill this role, but even they will need guidance at some point, and what if there is a difference in oppinion between GMs? Who would mediate? It is for situations such as these and for the absolout coolness of Chaplains that I think they should exist Cool and who better to spirtually guide the Galaxy's finest, most elite force than a Lightening Claw weilding Chaplain with black armour!!!!? Razz

So there you have it! My opinion Wink I am looking forward to hearing what you(and my Brothers)think of my position.

_________________
+++"There is nothing in the arcane and blasphemous arsenal of the forces of Chaos that can compare to faith. With the power of faith, our weapons become shining instruments of deliverance that can cleave the mightiest daemon in twain. With the power of faith, our minds appear as slivers of pure agony to the daemon, driving into the wretched forms of those who would dare stand before us. With the power of faith, our words become commands that cause the daemon to cower and cringe in terror. I could meet my enemies unarmed without a shred of fear in my chest, for I know that the Emperor watches over me and guides my hand. So let them come. We shall show them what the power of faith can do."+++ (Brother Captain Stern)

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Zealadin on Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:38 am

Yea thats the bone of contention, if you take a look at bolter and chainsword in their inquisition area there is alot of discussion about it, or there was like 6months ago Razz
GK's don't 'need' a SM type chaplain, by definitions a GK's resolve and faith is untouchable, (as none have ever been corrupted) and in the book in question he describes a few times when a GK feels doubt he will remain uncorrupted, which is of course total horse shit if you excuse my language, such a think can never and will never happen.

Obviously however there is many responsibilities and positions outside what a BC or GM could and would want to do, and those would be filled by a chaplain kind of figure, the real issue is that most of the ranks the GK's used are based on an old military brotherhood, and there simply are no more good ranks to name stuff after Razz (did a bit of research all that time ago) which means by default chaplain is the easiest rank to use (however irrelevant to a GK ranking system)

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Rivan on Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:30 pm

I understand what brother Constantine is saying as far as the need for an over-arching structure. A real world analogy would be the Pope overseeing the cardinals and bishops and priests. While I totally agree that GK are wholly incorruptible, it's nice to think that they are not simply automatons with no capacity for free will when it comes to matters of faith. They have gone through rigorous psycho-indoctrination to protect them from the horrors and temptations of the warp, but I'd like to think they're still human, super-human of course, but still human. So, a Grey Knight Chaplain to help guide and provide support with matters of faith is completely understandable.

Besides, in an Apocalypse game, since anything goes, you can actually attach a Chaplain w/ GKT's and get the bonuses for the Litanies of (whatever they call it now, used to be "hate"). I'd rather use a GK chaplain rather than a SM chaplain for that. Pretty cheesy, I know, but pretty awesome too!!! GET SOME!!!

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Zealadin on Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:41 pm

I prefer the concept in the book, the chaplain is a keeper of lore and the brotherhoods secrets, which obviously not every GK can know all of, they would have to be given the tools that meet their needs at the times, and wouldn't be burdened with knowledge of all the dangers in the universe (simply because the mind could probably not hold that much information)

The chaplain in this way can provide tactical and strategic knowledge as well as arcane knowledge to any GK who needs it, as well as advice from past conflicts.

There would be no matters of faith for GK, the way they are trained creates the indominatable faith that guides and protects them, once they reach PAGK status they are fully forged. However its possible in the training process that a chaplain figure would be required for instilling that faith.

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Constantine on Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:26 am

These are ALL good points Brothers, but I remain confident in my belief of the need for a Grey Kinght Chaplain.

We have all identified that GKs faith is not a question, and I definatly do not dispute this fact. However, there will always be a need to debrief after missions, and whos responsibility is it to recieve those debriefings?

A lot of the comments around the "Chaplain's" roles" identifies the need to be familiar with past battles and lessons learned by the GKs. To me these responsibilities seem to fall under the jurisdiction of individual Brothers and more classically, a Librarian, which of course we definatly not need due to fact tha all of our Brothers posses phychic abilities. But that leaves the question "Whos responsibility is it then?"

My answer is....... The Chaplains. Who better for a GM to recieve "constructive critisism" from about his performance in a mission than a Chaplain, and of course who else would dare, or live to tell the tale about such a feat? Shocked

Another point I would like to make is that belonging to an Order that has not had a single member fall is quite the accomplishment cheers One that is worth maintaining.

I know that the novels have their weaknesses but lets put that aside for now and use the Hammer of Daemons novel as an example....Alaric has just returned from a Daemon world and has a brand of Khorne on his body. Hmmm, I think that he has some explaining to do don't you? Razz Who will he debrief to? A Chaplain. Also, this would be a great opportunity to evaluate the condition of his faith (which of course remains unshakable) again who better to posses the skills and knowledge of how to perform this assessment than a Chaplain? And finally, Chaplains are good for moral. Alaric, although he would probhably not admit it would like to be told he did a good job and be told of other Brothers that had performed other comparable acts for the Order. This will ensure Alaric that his is doing what he is supposed to and is not alone in his experiences. This last bit sounds cheesy I know, BUT a large majority of the HH novels tell of how entire chapters fall to the dark powers of Chaos because individuals feel as though their accomplishments and actions are not being recognized or given enough credit!! This is true of horus himself!!!

I would say that that is my two cents worth, but it looks more like a bucks worth!! Laughing
Let me know what you think about my points.

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+++"There is nothing in the arcane and blasphemous arsenal of the forces of Chaos that can compare to faith. With the power of faith, our weapons become shining instruments of deliverance that can cleave the mightiest daemon in twain. With the power of faith, our minds appear as slivers of pure agony to the daemon, driving into the wretched forms of those who would dare stand before us. With the power of faith, our words become commands that cause the daemon to cower and cringe in terror. I could meet my enemies unarmed without a shred of fear in my chest, for I know that the Emperor watches over me and guides my hand. So let them come. We shall show them what the power of faith can do."+++ (Brother Captain Stern)

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Rivan on Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:21 pm

Totally good points as well Brother C. And I can understand Brother Zeal's point of view as well. I guess one of the main cornerstones of the GK's incorruptibility is their unshakable faith in the Emperor. Their faith is so deeply ingrained that there can never be a GK who will fall to chaos, unlike other SM chapters. However, in defense of the author of the GK novels, it is difficult in the extreme to flesh out his characters' personalities and "human-ness" if you will, if he can't portray them as still "human" with their thoughts, feelings, and yes, even doubts. Not doubts about their faith in the emperor, nor about the total evil-ness of chaos, but more humane doubts similar to what Alaric felt. He wasn't sure if he was tainted, if he was still "worthy". Ironically, I think it is a GK's deeply ingrained faith that allows him to ask these questions. It'll make for a boring read if it's all about the physical conflicts and no moral or psychological conflicts. I believe that is also one reason the GK chaplain came into the picture. I'm not sure if I made any sense or just rambled but there it is Smile


Last edited by Rivan on Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar)

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Zealadin on Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:19 pm

I think more the issue is that chaplain is not nor will ever be a Grey Knight rank. It doesn't fit the structure nor the lore of the brotherhood.

In alot of military structures those of higher rank must always be tough and harsh on those under them both to maintain their position and to keep their soldier's respect. At a more intermediate level there is normally a position that is more about helping those soldiers and even higher ranking individuals through problems be they pyshical mental etc because the structure of the brotherhood prevents this from being provided by other superiors,

The "chaplain" position in the book if you ask me is a perfectly accepted one, it just needs a proper name that fits the GK structure.

Chaplains = SM

I did a quick search to find the brotherhood the GK military structure is based on but couldn't find it on short notice, but its interesting to look at, and by the looks of it, in their structure they rolled many roles into positions rather than creating new positions and unnecesarily bloating their ranks.

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Rivan on Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:51 pm

You're right, I can tell you that we do have Chaplains in the Navy and they serve as counselors and advisors to our military community. They are not "essentially" part of the chain of command but of course is still respected by everyone, primarily because they are still commissioned officers.

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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Nausaden on Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:55 pm

Very well thought out on the role of Chaplain in the Grey Knights, namely by Brother Constantine. He made a lot of good points, that I feel don't really insult or mess with the hard core lore.

The Grey Knight novels wouldn't be worth reading if it wasn't for the psychological and philosophical questions presented, the various tests for the faith of the Grey Knights. It was also presented very well by Counter, and kept in with the unshakable will and determination of the Grey Knights but still enough to make the characters interesting.

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Zealadin on Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:10 pm

Ben Counters isn't the most popular writer when it comes to sticking to actual set in stone lore, but his books are quite good for GK's (his eldar book was terrible though)
He is definately more of a battle scene writer than a novelist in my mind, which fits 40k quite well.

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Rivan on Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:46 pm

If you guys get a chance to read Graham McNeil's The Killing Ground, he features GKs there with his Ultramarine heroes and he did very well IMHO. I think he would make a great GK novel if he wrote one.

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by BrotherDvorn on Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:28 am

does this really matter grey knights are the best anyway a chaplain can't change this!

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Nausaden on Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:25 pm

-Brother Zeal- Aye, Ben Counter certainly feel's at most home with those battle scenes. I still recall the opening to Grey Knights with Grand Master Mandulis, very powerful scene.

I heard he did an Eldar book and it was garbage XD

-Brother Rivan- Funny, I was actually getting into reading some of Graham McNeils's works for the Black Library. I will definitely go check out Killing Grounds if he put some Grey Knights there! Very Happy

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Glavian on Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:58 pm

I agree with Brother C. Hey, that rhymes! Razz

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Zealadin on Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:04 am

The Eldar Prophecy book was probably the worst novel I have read in my entire life....
It may have been done by him. Its probably the only book I have bought and not really wanted to keep after reading. (I keep all the books I read)

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

Post by Aubec le noir on Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:24 am

so don't read "skulltaker" ! it's worst !! Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad affraid affraid
i finished it only because i bought it Mad Mad
Aubec pirat

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Re: +BINERY 000006+ Ranks Within the Grey Knight Chapter

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