Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Belarus on Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:11 am

They die easy, but are capable of doing serious damage. With Shouding increased to 2d6x3 and being able to fall down in Drop Pod they would be worth 25 points.

Besides SM Sergeant will pay 15 points for power weapon and pays 10 pts for his Ld and extra attack. Get a regular PAGK, make from his NFW Power Weapon, give him higher Ld and extra attack and where will you end? Right, 50 points.

I do not argue about Chimera being capable of transporting PAGK. Itīs just not fluffy in my eyes. I thought that the goal is to keep the soul of the Daemonhunters, the feeling of the army.

An yes, I can do without Land Speeders. Even Space Marines can. But why do they have them as an option then?

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Grimhack on Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:15 am

Well I see chimera's way more fluffy then landspeeders... rhino's are expensive, while you get a chimera with every 10 lasguns you buy. xD

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Belarus on Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:25 am

Sure, GK shooting a lasgun is really fluffy :/. Landspeeders were just an idea to add some FA choice to our army. GK on Bikes, GK with Jump Packs... thatīs nonsense. LS may be a nonsense too, but it was worth mentioning.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Grimhack on Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:44 am

the lasguns aren't for the knights but for the silly guardsmen that are forced to fight by the inquisitor... it's not codex grey knights but codex daemonhunters.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Belarus on Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:08 pm

Iīm talking all the time about the possibility of Grey Knights having Chimera as a dedicated transport. Read more carefully, brother.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Grimhack on Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:33 pm

Yes I know but my reference of the lasguns and chimera where actually meant as a joke, maybe it didn't really seem like it but anyway... Still I think that most of that is personal idea about the knights as there isn't really that much of background around them to be completely honest. (and don't say ben counter wrote books cause they don't count.)

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Snowfire on Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:33 pm

Cheers for all the new ideas.

Yeah, there was bound to be some typos in there at some point.

In regards to the FA slots, ignoring all the SM stuff (land speeders, jump packs etc), is there anything outside of the box that might fit? IG suddenly get Valkyries and a few other new toys like that. Drop-pod seems to fit, but other than that, there is not much.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by DarkRonin on Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:57 pm

After looking over what was done, I'd have to ask what happened to the Dreadnought, still the same price (Only added Smokes and Lights), but one less attack? Doesn't make much sense compared to having more weapons available. Either way, we have one arm already, why make it less compared to the standard Dreadnought.

I'd also like to make a suggestion about the Orbital Strike. It already takes up a slot in our Heavy Support catagory, it doesn't add bodies on the table for us, so why not have it as an Upgrade for the Inquisitor Lord. My reasoning is this, both the Space Marine Captain and Chapter Master have the same base stats, the only real difference between them is that the Chapter Master can call down an Orbital Strike. And the price difference for them is only 25 Points between both units. So why not have it as an upgrade for the Inquisitor, a more expensive one compared to the Space Marines, but it'll free up a Heavy Support Slot for us to work with.

The Augemetics for the Inquisitors is pretty neat, it reminds me a bit of Chaos Marks, but this is done with bionic parts instead of foul warp powers.

The only other issues that I see involve the Psychic Power, Banishment. It seems a bit overpowered with how they don't get any saves against the power at all, so it's instant death to most models and it can be used to easily destroy the Greater Daemons as well (Unless something is used to counter it), since its 2D6. Of course it only affects daemons, but it seems rather unbalanced to me since it causes X amount of wounds per use and then there is the combat itself.

Also, I'm not too keen on restricting the amount of Special Weapons that a Squad can use based on its size. On average, and in the fluff, most squads are small and each person has to fill a specific role.

One more thing, about the Fast Attack, how about we take advantage of our ties with the Adeptas Mechanicus and see what they can turn out for us. It might flesh more out of the Machine Cult then mere Tech Priests, Servitors, Tech Marines, in normal non-apocalypse games.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Belarus on Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:06 am

What about giving Fast Attack GK ability to assault the same turn they Deep Strike via teleport?

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Primarch on Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:15 pm

How about a land speeder manned by IST instead of grey knights?

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Brother Arginius on Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:36 am

Idea Has anyone seen an Arvus lighter. Do you think we could use it as it could be armoured like a valkyrie but able to move about after it has dropped of a squad it could be a dedicated transport for say 65pts cause that would be so cool. Very Happy But it might turn out to be to pricey to buy lots of them. scratch
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/arvusl.htm

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Nausaden on Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:28 pm

I second Fast choice deep striking Knights being able to assault when the land Very Happy

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:55 am

From an arvus?

I think grey knights have more self respect (and self preservance) than to ride to battle in a arvus lighter.

A craft designed to carry unimportant personnel and small goods between ground and spaceships.

I'm not saying that the arvus in not cool, it's sick cool.

But not as a transport for GK.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Brother Arginius on Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:40 am

i meant for the stormtropes as fast attack PAGK can already deepstrike. but good point. Very Happy

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Grimhack on Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:34 pm

Just demand of GW that they make a plastic for thunderhawk gunships and add them to our 'dex. Transport in style Cool

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Primarch on Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:11 am

I was just thinking this: Brother Captain Stern has banished several greater demons of Tzeentch and a countless number of lesser demons, arguably in his skill alone he is more powerful than Marneus Calgar and Tigarius WITHOUT the use of ancient relics or artifacts. Since this is the case in a new DH codex he should be elevated to Grand Master status with significantly more powerful abilities.

Think of it people Grand Master Stern or Knight Commander Stern Razz

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Klomster on Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:00 am

Stern is not yet mature enough to become grand master.

Plus, grand masters are harder than that.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Brother Blutcher on Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:21 am

I agree with you Klomster, and the lack of "official" GM permits to create the one you want, with the equipment you wish...In adition, a brother chaplain seems to fit our 666 chapter...

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Kiwibob on Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:34 am

First time reading these changes, just a few things popped out to me.

Inquisitor Augments, namely the brain implant. 25 points for +1WS and Init is too much. Eldar can do that to a whole squad for 15 points. So reduce it to 10-15 points.

GK termies options, maybe upgrade it to 1 in every 4 models may replace their stormbolter. Also, their points are way under what they need to be and you have improved the BS. With BS 5 and the +2 str and shrouding that should be at least 10 points more then a standard SM terminator.

Possibly make the Brother-captain a specific upgrade of +5/10 points as it only gives +1 attack.

The whole unit having psybolts is nice though, I don't think over-priced though as that many shots at AP4 can devastate many non Marine armies.

PAGK's, way too cheap. Leave at 25 points, make the justicar around 12 points more then a standard PAGK for the extra attack and power weapon.

Cost of incinerator is too low as well. Normal Heavy flamers are 10 points, so ignoring invul saves is worth another 5 at least.

Transports are way underpriced as well. keep inline with current SM and IG codices for transport costs.

Landraider redeemer: Upgrade to incinerators should be cheaper, if not free as flamestorms break that critical AP3 mark.

Shrouding is too powerful now. Its pretty much an instant win against any army that relies heavily on its ranged weapons. i.e Tau. Making this more powerful AND lower the cost of many of the GK's is by far way too much. Do one, not both. As is shrouding averages a 27'' range which is quite adequate in many circumstances. Leave as in codex

Banishment: the ability to do up to 12 wounds that ignore saves for a mere 20 points. maybe 1d6, but not 2d6. Granted its only against Daemons, but this is still too much.

I do like the destroy daemon and WotE powers though.

Major OP part here. Just saw that you also gave standard PAGK power weapons. No, 20 points for power weapon, 6 str and your improved shrouding is going to break the game. 25 points for the normal PAGK as it was in the codex was good, only the Justicar really needed the points nerf.

With the Psycannon improvements it should be made slightly more expensive. Breaking that critical AP3 barrier is worth at least another 5 points per weapon even with the str decrease.

Storm Shield should be inline with the new SM Storm Shield. Why would GK's get a lesser version?

This was written in the order I read the codex and isn't meant to be a bash on the work done. Props for putting in the work for this but I just don't see this as a viable and balanced codex so I'm hoping my input can help improve it.

However with it looking like a new codex coming out for us I'm not sure its needed.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Brother Ezekiel on Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:58 am

Okay,thats your opinion,but I think that most guys here are going to disagree with your statement Bob.That the PAGK are OP for theyr points that is.Because one of the guys actually calculated most of the other troop squads out there against the PAGK with only normals,with special weapons etc. and came with the conclusion that only Khorne Berzerkers were suckier troops than PAGK and that doesn't really matter because they don't need to do everything like the PAGK,only be CC-oriented troops.Besides what you mean Transports?The Only transports for the PAGK are Land Raiders,if you play pure GK force,which makes them the costiest transports in the game.Sure theyr powerfull,but seriously if I'd have to take an LR as a transport for most of my squads,my list would be considerably smaller than now,I mean if the LRs are only used as transports the rhino can accomplish the same with a lot less points,tho being frailer.And no,I don't think the Termies are underpriced because,yeah they are propably one of the games most powerfull elite choices,but with the allready high cost of the PAGK you can't get enough of them to make them win your battle for you.I mean theyr awesome and good,but even so they can't beat everything.And for Shrouding,I don't think its OP,I mean from what I have heard it really doesn't come as a crucial part in any battle,as a good man and a member of this forum once said to me:"its just a bonus when it kicks in."But I agree on that the GKT should get the same SS as the normal SM or maybe even slightly better,as they are the elite of the elite.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Kiwibob on Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:33 pm

Brother Ezekiel wrote:Besides what you mean Transports?The Only transports for the PAGK are Land Raiders.

If you have read the entire document for a daemonhunters codex rewrite you would notice
Rhino 35 points
Chimera 45 points

and if you agree with 20 points for a Marine with str 6, a power weapon and on average can't be hit if more then 18'' away then oh well. Oh and a storm bolter with true grit...

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Brother Ezekiel on Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:26 pm

You can give a rhino or a chimera to the PAGK?Huh...
I wonder why no-one on this forum has used such a thing or mentioned it.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by DarkRonin on Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:14 pm

In the actually Daemonhunters Codex, both the Chimera and the Rhino are only usable by Storm Troopers and Inquisitors. Grey Knights can't join them at all. The only exception would have to be Independent Characters (Grey Knight Heroes - Brother Captain, Grand Master, and Stern) and then they would only be able to join in a Chimera as long as they've joined the squad of Storm Troopers.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Kiwibob on Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:00 pm

Brother Ezekiel wrote:You can give a rhino or a chimera to the PAGK?Huh...
I wonder why no-one on this forum has used such a thing or mentioned it.

You can't. However this is an Inquisition codex. Including Inquisitorial storm troopers.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Primarch on Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:21 pm

Just thought of this:

We are in great need of a fast attack unit that is not a speeder, bike or jump pack (apparently you guys don't like flying GKs).

It would actually make quite a bit (as in my opinion) to have some type of mechanised or genetically modified mount like a mechanised rhino (animal) that grey knights ride on. It would compliment the appearance of a grey knight and be a unique variant of a space marine (no offence) army. Thus grey knights on mech rhinos are a cavalry unit (plus its a tribute to the knights of old)

Just saying

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

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