Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Andarius the Red on Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:23 pm

I just thought that 25 points would have been appropriate since it pretty much prevents most reinforcement from arriving but maybe cheaper is better. 10...15 points maybe?

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Rivan on Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:42 pm

Probably 15 points is good, 20 at the max for sure. And Brother NF's suggestion of "...either assault phase" is definitely a must.

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:36 am

I definately would think it would be nice to have more reactive abilities, especially those you can use when an opponent decides to fire or assault your squad, something you can then turn off and give them a suprise :p

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Rivan on Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:16 am

NemesisForce wrote:Sanctify might be too expensive but Righteous Fury definitely isn't. I5, S7 power weapon attacks for my GKT's? Yes, thank you! It should state 'at the beginning' of either assault phase to avoid confusion.

Brother NF, don't forget I6 for our GM, plus sacred incense...we can actually hit Abaddon before he can even raise his sword!!! GET SOME!!! Razz

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by NemesisForce on Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:24 am

Even though 'reactive' powers would be cool, it smacks too much to me of SOB faith points. Depending of course on what the actual powers were.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Coyote on Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:41 pm

Ok so normally I like to focus on what I can do with what I have rather than wish listing what I'd like to see in the next DH Codex, but today for some reason I'm fixated on it. Besides what I've already mentioned about Dreadnaughts here are my 3 gems for today:

1. Psychic Network - After thousands of years of teleportation experience the Grey Knights have learned to use each other as beacons in the warp in order to more accurately triangulate there target destination on the battlefield. For every Grey Knight unit to include vehicles on the board the teleporting unit may subtract one inch from their roll if they scatter.

This is well balanced. For a list using only 1 or 2 GK units DSing isn't so risky because their model count is high. For a pure GK list the opposite is true.

2. Shrouding - Unlike many other players I don't feel like this is a broken rule. It keeps my GK's from getting picked off at long ranges where I can't retaliate and forces my opponent to come into a range where I can more easily deal with him. Not a game winner but nice to have. HOWEVER, adding something to it might make it a more useful rule. So why not make the shrouding have the same effect as assault grenades in addition to what it already does?

3. This is my favorite. To fix the horribly lacking fast attack catagory in the DH Codex I would love to see an Inquisitorial variant of the Vendetta Gunship loaded out with 3 twin linked psycannons instead of twin linked lascannons.

In fact I like that idea so much I sent a request to Forgeworld to make the kit and I'm thinking about making my own datasheet for the next friendly game of apocalypse I play.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Rivan on Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:52 pm

Love the thought of a psycannon-armed Inquisitorial Vendetta gunship!!!

Shrouding acting like assault grenades in cc does make sense if you think about it. Instead of the enemy hunkering down behind cover, they get confused that the GK's are in their midst already.

Not sure what you meant about "For a pure GK list the opposite is true"...In a pure GK list, wouldn't you have even less chance of scattering wide since you'll probably be able to deduct 6-8" from your scatter distance? scratch

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Coyote on Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:24 pm

Sorry that probly wasn't all too clear....but yes you and I are saying the same thing... In an all GK list you don't wanna risk losing a unit since your model count is low so having the benefit of a more accurate teleport would make it more feasible whereas having a list with a higher model count (such as an DH list with only a few GK units) has a little more forgiveness if you lose them to a deepstrike mishap.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by NemesisForce on Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:56 pm

An Inquisitorial Vendetta would be most cool, especially loaded out with cluster psy-bombs as well. Pick a target spot and drop a number of small blast templates (same stats as psycannons) and roll for scatter.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Rivan on Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:47 am

Psy-bombs...now THAT is way COOL!!!! cheers

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Coyote on Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:25 pm

Very nice!

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Primarch on Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:31 am

I think the Grand Master needs to be improved to be more in line with the stats of the SM chapter masters:

WS-BS--S--T--W--I--A--Ld---Sv
6---5---4--4---4--5--4--10--2+/5+
+ eternal warrior and current rules (but Iron will instead of fearless)

At 155 pts (10 more than current)

The GM should reflect that the GK are the largest chapter, most elite and that the GMs are the very best the Ordo Malleus and GK have to offer.

I don't believe that the GM should be priced any higher than this because many commanders from other armies are well below the price of the GM for slightly worse stats.


EDIT: It just occured to me that as a fast attack option, Grey Knights should have Assualt Grey Knights with Jump Packs, giving them the same stats weapons as standard Grey Knights but the assault jump ability.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by NemesisForce on Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:02 pm

I agree with the stats you gave the GM but I don't think he should get Eternal Warrior. That particular rule is usually reserved for special named characters like Abbadon and Calgar. And welcome to the forum by the way.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Snowfire on Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:46 am

I agree with the stats, and like NemesisForce, agree that Eternal Warrior is a bit much.

In regards to adding jump-packs to Grey Knights, this would make for a really broken type of unit. It can move up to 12 inches, shoot to 24 and assault 6 all in the same turn? Adding in strength bonus from NFW and thats a nasty squad.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Primarch on Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:54 am

I don't think that assualt GK would be too overpowering, considering that they would most likely be very expensive, making them few in number.


I would like to see GK aranged in squads similar to that of SM, such as an expansion of the purgation squad arsenal to make it more comparable to the SM devastator squads.

After thinking about it a bit more, it does seem unfair that the GM would get eternal warrior. A nid player would cry if you killed a couple of his canifexs instantly and sustained one or two wounds.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Vorenus on Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:16 am

Greetings Brothers,

First time posting here after a long time browsing.

I strongly believe that it is a really simple job to make a few adjustments to our list to keep us competetive until a new Codex can be written.

1. Bring GM's in line with SM Chapter Masters
2. Bring BC's in line with SM Captains
3. Remove BC's From GKT's in a mirror to that of Black Templars not having a leader in its Terminator Squads.
4. Mirror IST's to IGST's
5. Mirror all common GK/SM wargear in cost and effects. Storm Shields for example
6. Add LR Redeemers to Heavy Support
7. Move GK dread from Heavt Support to Elite
8. Add Drop Pods to Dedicated Transports
9. Remove outdated Psy powers
10. And most importantly..revise points costs.

All these points are very simple to apply and I have play tested then extensivley.
I would not expect a new codex for at least a year so why not post a chapter approved update either online or in WD to eliviate the problems of bother DH players and opponents moaning about facing 3 LR's in a 1500 point game.

I have wrote a very detailed letter outlining the problems we have in our codex atm and giving the results of over 100 games playtested in my local GW store angainst or witnessed by GW staff.

I really believe that the lack of a chapter approved update similar to that given to blood angels players is just plain laziness and added to the trend of very bad Codex creep we have seen from the release of 5th, I belive that 40k is now the most un balanced it has been.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Primarch on Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:38 am

I would be very happy to see those kinds of changes, particularly with points balancing and stats improvements. My only difference is that I feel the GM should be more powerful than the SM chapter master to reflect the skills of GK chapter master (at a greater points cost of course).

Good on you for sending a letter, hopefully it won't fall under blind eyes and some real progress will be made.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:19 am

Agree with everything except the drop pods. They need to make teleport PAGK a troop and viable. Drop pods are definately not in the GK lore.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Vorenus on Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:30 pm

Zealadin wrote:Agree with everything except the drop pods. They need to make teleport PAGK a troop and viable. Drop pods are definately not in the GK lore.

I would have to dis-agree tbh.
GK modus operantum has to be orbital assault. Teleporting for the Termies and Drop pods for the PAGK's.
If anything give PAGK in the fast attack role a free Drop pod instead of teleport in a similar way to SM assault trops/veterans who dont take jump packs. I think we would all agree that PAGK's attacking from strke cruiser in a Drop Pod is more in character than the often suggested jump pack PAGK's. In my play tests I have seen good results from drop pods, especially when used in conjuntion with twin cinies.

As for lore. Chapter 1 and Chapter 19 of the Novel Grey Knight would disagree with you.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Dark Bjoern on Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:50 pm

Our Dreadnoughts should also have access to droppods (not only via FW rules) to support our swift attacks.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by NemesisForce on Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:23 pm

Welcome to the forum Vorenus. All good points you make. I agree with others though on no drop pods except for the Dread. Teleporting is part of the GK fluff and we should get some special rules for it. Since psychic powers such as Holocaust is focused through him, the B-C should be mandatory for a Termie squad. Other than those two points, I agree with all you said.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Rivan on Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:48 pm

Welcom Vorenus!

Likewise agree w/ all points except I concede to Brother NF that a BC should be part of an elite termie squad.

While I would like to see the dread moved over to Elites, I believe the main reason it is in HS is because of the myriad elites choices we have w/ the inquisition (death cults, inquisitors, assassinorum operatives, etc). Remember, while I think it is really cool that a lot of us prefer a "pure" GK force, a daemonhunters army wasn't primarily designed to be played that way Very Happy

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:13 am

Vorenus wrote:
Zealadin wrote:Agree with everything except the drop pods. They need to make teleport PAGK a troop and viable. Drop pods are definately not in the GK lore.

I would have to dis-agree tbh.
GK modus operantum has to be orbital assault. Teleporting for the Termies and Drop pods for the PAGK's.
If anything give PAGK in the fast attack role a free Drop pod instead of teleport in a similar way to SM assault trops/veterans who dont take jump packs. I think we would all agree that PAGK's attacking from strke cruiser in a Drop Pod is more in character than the often suggested jump pack PAGK's. In my play tests I have seen good results from drop pods, especially when used in conjuntion with twin cinies.

As for lore. Chapter 1 and Chapter 19 of the Novel Grey Knight would disagree with you.

The Grey Knight novel by Ben Counters is pretty much accepted as being a book about Space Marines painted silver in GK wargear. He doesn't follow lore when he writes he makes it up as he goes (as shown by other equally bad (lore-wise) novels). His only saving grace is his action writing is pretty good.
PAGK teleport as our codex represents, and realistically the only reason for making GK's (of any type) able to drop pod is if GWS feel the need to stuff another expensive item down a GK players throat to make their army viable. I personally don't think buying drop pods would be an ideal solution to some of the issues the army faces, especially when lore and fluff wise GK's can teleport into battle, a cleaner, faster, more effecient method.
That being said there are plenty of people who prefer to play GK's like SMs if thats their cup of tea then its their time and money.

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Rivan on Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:41 am

@Brother Z: Actually, drop podding in is actually safer than normal teleport as per how the game rules are written. Now, arguably, GK's, being extensive users of teleportation should probably have some special rule that makes them less likely to suffer a mishap but I think expecting that to be put in our new codex would even be more far fetch than being able to use drop pods. Just my two cents...

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

Post by Zealadin on Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:47 am

Well yes thats 100% true Razz
I doubt we will see any form of mobility fixes since they seem to be part of our armies 'weakness' without making certain sacrifices in other areas, and its a bit sad how the teleporting works, since it could add real flavour to the army, but again we are constricted by a common set of rules across all armies.
If they where to change something like this, it probably would be to drop pods due to the large amount of money to be gained from GK players, but I doubt either will change much.

With each new army rules change, you'll notice that generally a large proportion of the armies models are updated so people have to buy all the new stuff, sadly it seems changes are reliant on sales and profit not on what would be balanced, cool, or fun.

Edit: You'll have to excuse my foul mood at the moment, some problems IRL with family and financial stuff

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Re: Fixing Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle

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