Grey knights in 8th

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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Aubec le noir on Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:14 am

And what about the Primaris ? Do we have the right to take them ?
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Aubec le noir on Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:22 pm

Chaplain confirmed : CC 2+ WS 2+ all the special rules and toys of a regular chaplain WITH the psyker hability of 1 power and 1 abjuration per turn for 150-160 points (i can't remember exactly)... a must if you ask me ! 😈
And the NDK for chapter master option is only for 30 points more !! Twisted Evil
No primaris allowed it seems... a pity and if you like flyers : Stormhawk and stormtalon are confirmed !
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Andarius the Red on Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:30 pm

We shouldn't have primaris to begin with, we're a very niche space marine army with secrets we can't simply share with newly trained units that are just given to us. Primaris are meant for an all round opponent like xenos and traitors, that's why the other chapters got them. We handle things that they were not trained or designed for.

Besides, Primaris marines in a grey knight army feels... Like a downgrade really.
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Aubec le noir on Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:58 am

Well... it could have given to me the opportunity to paint new units and new armours that's why i would be pleased to have primaris in our codex ! Wink
Besides i would have liked to test and play the LR Excelcior for instance ! Twisted Evil
But to be true i would have been more pleased to have contemptors or Mortis dreads in our codex ! Wink
Halas ... it seems we still have to rely on the forge world book to play Mortis dreads... Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Andarius the Red on Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:31 pm

Just got the book today and already I am pleased! Twisted Evil

The gear we wished we had back in the last codex are now back, but as strategems. The ones I see being used the most are Psybolt Ammunition (2CP) which takes all your bolt weaponry and adds +1 to their strength and AP, Psychic Onslaught (2CP) which does the same thing but to psycannons and psylancers, and Psychic Channeling (1CP) which lets you roll 3 dice for psychic tests and choose the better of the two
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Aubec le noir on Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:58 am

Cool thing Bro ! Thanks for the Intel ! Wink
Those are pre-battle stratagems right !? scratch
If yes does they stay all the battle ? Twisted Evil
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Andarius the Red on Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:49 pm

Each stratagem used is limited to a unit you pick to get the benefit and they only last until the end of the turn. so if you use the psybolt ammunition stratagem it can only benefit one unit in the shooting phase for that turn only.
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Aubec le noir on Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:15 am

Quite expensive don't you think !... scratch
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Andarius the Red on Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:41 pm

You're using a stratagem that turns your storm bolters, heavy bolters and hurricane bolters into assault cannons for one turn, 2 command points seem appropriate.

To capitalise on that you get 3 command points by default and more for every formation you have in your army. If you had a battalion detachment then that's another +3, followed by +1 for any other detachment available. So at best having 6-7 command points you could use that stratagem 3 times. Other stratagems are available and are cheaper which adds more dynamic to your army like True Silver Armor (1CP) which lets you ignore MORTAL WOUNDS inflicted on your vehicles on a 5+, Mental Focus (1CP) which lets you use one extra psychic power beyond your unit's limit for one turn, or Wisdom of the Ancients (1CP) which turns your dreadnought into a Grand Master for 1 turn and grants anyone 6' away to reroll any failed rolls of 1 in the shooting phase or assault phase for that turn!
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Aubec le noir on Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:01 pm

Those other stratagems are fun ! Twisted Evil
I was on vacations so i don't have my codex yet !... next week-end ! Wink
So i'll see ...
Do you intend to try our newly born NDKGM ( quite long acronym don't you think !! Razz )... i have the feeling that he could be a game changer.... scratch
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Andarius the Red on Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:19 pm

Just did a 2000 point game with one, I'll write out the report soon.
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Aubec le noir on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:52 am

Cool !... with pics ? Wink
You won ?
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Pyriel on Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:21 pm

Warp wortex. What orbital bombardment should have been!

What a fun power and well spent command points (channeling) instead of the utter waste of CP that the orbital is.



Sadly our terminators are still garbage as are 2/3 of our heavy weapons.

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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Aubec le noir on Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:43 am

Most of our stratagems are awesome ! Twisted Evil
The only use of our termies is that they are troops... Paladins for 6 points more are much better ! +1CC for the Paragon +1 attack +1w +1Cd it's just awesome !! affraid
I find you hard on our heavy weapons they are not so bad ! And our psychic phase is very powerful so we are not forced to rely on shooting phase ! Wink
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Pyriel on Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:32 pm

Terminators are a waste. The morons overpriced them like mad. You want troops then strikes are better in every case.

Our heavy weapons are a pathetic joke for what they cost. Even ork heavies laugh at us. Tell me why I should pay for a terminator psycannon, it causes half a wound on a rhino for those points.

How much does a dreadknight heavy incinerator cost again? How much points will it e v e r manage to earn back?



When a GK army works best by not taking anything special what so ever then the codex has failed.
When this works far better then a "balanced" approach with a little of everything:

Brother captain
Brother captain
5 strike
5 strike
5 strike
5 strike
5 strike
3 paladins
3 paladins
3 paladins
3 paladins
3 paladins
Dreadnought
Dreadnought

ALL bare naked except a few hammers sprinkled in here and there..

..then there is something wrong with the codex.

Massive deepstriking/gating smite+captain aura first to the fray spam. Works far better vs heavy armour and vehicles then shooting at them with our heavy watercannons.
Against deamons of any kind this is unbeatable.

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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Andarius the Red on Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:44 pm

I respectfully disagree.

Psycannons are pretty much Assault Cannon in our hands, and half a wound? Really? I've killed Rhinos with strike squads armed with two of them. A paladin squad armed with four took an Ork bike squad on their own. I used them to focus on tough targets and storm bolters to clean up afterwards.

The thing is the means in which how our weapons function have changed and so the same must be said on how they are used. Heavy incinerators aren't used to take out squads anymore but for defensive stances since they auto-hit their targets or to soften up multi-wound models before assault. (which your Dread Knight should be targeting anyway) If you want him to take out squads of baddies then arm him with a gatling psilancer. THAT will take out your Ork mob problem for sure. Oh! And its half the price of a heavy incinerator too. Wink

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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Pyriel on Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:55 pm

"Psycannons are pretty much Assault Cannon in our hands, and half a wound? Really? I've killed Rhinos with strike squads armed with two of them."

Psycannon: 4 shots heavy. Meaning on avrage:

2 hits since it shoots at -1 when moving and you pretty much never stand still with GKs.
2 hits at S7 vs a rhino T7 means one wound.
One wound at -1 rend means 0.5 failed 3+ save.

1Psycannon = 0.5 rhino wound. How much does a psycannon cost? It also removes the native stormbolter. Is this worth it for 0.5 wound gone from a rhino? Recalculate vs spaca marine enemies, how many killed points per cannon will you get?



In your example with 2 strike psycannons that is 8 shots.
Even at the utmost extremes of examples where the cannons are stationary and shoot on a 3+, all 8 shots hit, all 8 hits wound and all 8 armor saves fail..that is what, 0.7% chance of happening you still wont kill one rhino.

So I have no idea how your two strike psycannons managed to kill a rhino or even an ork trukk because it is mathematically impossible to do.

As for the NDK heavy incinerator answer my question, how much does it cost and how many points does it earn back? Softening p targets is irrelevant as those insane point costs. I can just as well tell you to add a 40 points laspistol and claim it is worth it because it also "softens" up a target.

You liked orks in the example so ok. The heavy incinerator hits on average 3.5 orks and wounds/kills 14 points of them.
Congratulations, you just killed 14 points of orks from melee/countercharge range with your heavy incinerator that costs how much again?


For the same amount of points that heavy incinerator costs how many stormbolters can you get? How many points of orks can those stormbolters kill from 24 instead of 12?

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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Andarius the Red on Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:56 pm

Huh... Guess I struck a nerve.

Well to answer your first question, a heavy incinerator costs 40 points, doing anywhere between a single automatic hit to a maximum of six automatic hits, depending on how lucky your dice rolls are. As for returns it all matters on whom you use it on. If its used on a 10 man tactical squad where your chance to wound is a 3+ and... Lets say you rolled 4 hits then 3 wounds, then there's a 20% chance 1 to 3 marines kick the bucket based on how well your opponent rolls. At worst it does nothing, at best that's 13- 39 points. (39 <40) If used on a 5 man terminator squad using the same logic, then there is a 15% chance that each successful wound would kill a terminator since heavy incinerators do 2 damage per wound. Again, at its worst you get nothing back, at best you may kill 1 or 2 terminators which could be 32- 64 points. (64 > 40) Lastly if used against a space marine commander with a basic load out then again you have a 50/50 chance per wound to cause 2 points of damage. At worst he blocks them all and you just stand there dripping promethium, at best you killed a 74 point model, not including whatever else said model had on his person. (74 > 40)

The heavy incinerator has its uses, just not the same uses it once had back in 7th edition. Its certainly useful in over watch but the multi-damage wounds makes it ideal against elites, HQ's or small swarms.

As for how many storm bolters you can get from one incinerator? 20, provided you have 20 grey knights not wearing one on their wrists :p

SO... A strike marine costs 21 points with a storm bolter equipped, a pair of strike grey knights with storm bolters comes to 42 points, so for the price of a REALLY big flame thrower you can get 2 knights. The heavy incinerator does 1-6 automatic shots that usually wounds on a 3+ depending on what you shoot at and does 2 damage per wound. The two storm bolters do 2-8 shots depending on your range on a 3+ and wounds on a 4+, but does 1 damage per wound. Eh... To me they seem to have the same in punching power but you can't arm a dread knight with a storm bolter so the incinerator is a good defensive option for me. Again from my previous post you could arm him with a gatling psilancer instead which is half the cost, does 12 shots and does d3 damage per wound, but you have to roll to hit as normal and its strength 4. its certainly a good mob killer provided you roll pretty good, but I digress.

The real problem is that this is a game of 'maybe', not 'definitely'. MAYBE 40 shots from 10 storm bolters could pepper a rhino to death, MAYBE not. But never definitely. There is always room for the unlikely or absurd to occur; like rolling 5 ones when saving for my librarian against 5 wounds, or rolling ten 6's in over watch with my terminator's storm bolters. Improbable? Yes. Impossible? No. Believe me the Librarian saves thing knocked me back on my chair when THAT happened!

There are no absolutes.
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Pyriel on Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:30 pm

Well, do you call making argument stuff up about 2 psycannons downing a rhino "striking a nerve"?
Funny way of weasling out of your own fail but hey, who am I to judge:P


SO..now that we and you too have established that the heavy incinerator is utter crap not ever earning anywhere near its points back I am curious to see how you will keep trying to polish the overcosted turd any more.
Tell me, why on earth would anyone ever pay its insane points other then in a vain hope that it will maybe happen to fire at juuust the perfect unit and roll juuust the perfect rolls?
Dont answer, the question is a rhetorical one since you cant and nope, it is overcosted right out of its GK codex.
And no, the defensive argument doesnt work either, a 40p flamer is still a overpriced turd no matter if you use it defensively or offensively.
Next!

The heavy psilencer I never complained about as it is not overpriced into uselessness but rather usable. Sadly it does exactly what the rest of the army is already very good at, stormboltering of wheenies of the table.


No, the game is not about "maybe", if we take the most obvious answer that we all "should" be striving for then the game is about having fun BUT in all reality this game is about statistical averages and n o t h i n g else at the more competitive level.
Defending overpriced junk with arguments that maaaaybe it will once in a blue moon roll so well that it will earn back its points doesnt cut it.
There are no absolutes true but it doesnt make the point any more valid, point inefficient units, models and wargear are just that and are so for a reason of statistical averages while KISS, simple, cheaper and reliable things most often win the games then hoping for that desperate "6" to save ones bacon.

Some things are cool yes, multiple dreadknights, heavy weapons everywhere etc but these are not point effective things other then in situational settings and are to easily countered.


And speaking of striking nerves I am still awaiting your explanation of how your two strike psycannons (in your hasty defense of them) managed to destroy a rhino. If you can sort that one out without retorting to a lot of "buts and ifs" then I guess there just might be a place for you in a quantum physics department some where because there has been years since I last saw such a mathematic fail of an example of a wargears awesomness relating to this game but hey, thanks for the smile:)




We could move on to the rest of the GK codex and go over each and every unit based on its point cost efficiency if you want to because some of the units are quite good while some are nearly worthless and I guess some players, especially new ones might be interested in knowing more about this.

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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Andarius the Red on Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:46 pm

Well they certainly helped. In the game in which I had that load out I fired on a chaos rhino with 10 berserkers inside. Starting off with psycannons I rolled 6 hits and two misses, on wounding I rolled four successes and he failed all four of those saves. As a mop up I used my storm bolters, in which out of 32 shots, 20 hit and 6 wounded. He passed two but failed the other four, killing the rhino.

They certainly did their part, cutting its health in half. I doubt that with a vanilla set up I'd end up with the same result, but it was a fun game so I have no complaints.
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Pyriel on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:33 am

Aaah, so the psycannons did in fact not take down that rhino but "just" helped with a few wounds.

Who would possibly have known:P



So, what is your take on purifyers? Point effective or not?

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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Andarius the Red on Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:31 am

In small games yes, they make pretty good assault troops with their extra attack and their ability to take twice as many heavy weapons is quite tempting as an option, but the loss of cleansing flame for an extremely short ranged smite (albeit doing D6 mortal wounds as opposed to D3) means they've lost the punch they once had in 7th edition. I'd say in a 1000 point game I'd set up a 5 man squad, all equipped with falchions and a razorback armed with a twin-linked assault cannon and storm bolter. Making it about 237 points. MAYBE arm one with a warding staff to give the squad a 5+ invulnerable save.

Bigger games I'd suggest Paladins; they can take a hit, have 3 wounds AND attacks and bear heavy weapons without losing their punch in CQC. Plus with an attached Apothecary their survivability goes WAY up.
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Aubec le noir on Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:44 am

Hi Brothers !
Please don't forget to be cool ! Wink ... you can argue but do it like gentlemen ! Wink
But to be true I disagree with you brother Pyriel : you consider the shooting phase as paramount. It was true in the 7th edition but it's less true now ! The psychic phase is more important and the cc is essential now !
So I believe that full termies/paladins/NDK lists are competitive !
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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Pyriel on Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:59 pm

Well, I would be happy to actually see a terminator themed GK army that doesnt get tabled by grots. Frontline surely have failed to the point of all the screaming about gk terminators being "sooo strong" funnily having disappeared and the same consensus can be found on BnC.
Sorry guys, GK terminators are painfully overpriced and there is a reason everyone takes paladins instead of the terminator crap.



As for purifyers they are imo melee units where their damage comes not from shooting overpriced heavy weapons while being killed of just like normal 13p marines in return (its idiotic to have a marine at that insane cost with crap heavy weapons on top in a shooting match) but more being stuck in melee pumping out mortal wounds but then again they need warding staves for added survivability because even in melee they die just as easy as 13p marines.

Im toying with a gated crusader with 2 squads of purifyers, captain, banner ancient and crowe. Thats a lot of mortal wounds on target turn 2 but then again it depends on the composition f the rest of the army.

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Re: Grey knights in 8th

Post by Aubec le noir on Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:58 pm

And don't forget sanctuary : it can give your purifiers a 5+ invulnerable ! Wink
Should I agree that we have our nemesis lists ... yes we have ! ... and maybe orks lists are among them but we have an equilibrated codex with which I believe I can beat every other list ! Twisted Evil
Then again don't take termies if you feel they are useless... make a reglementary army with the detachment of elites units and the one with big heavies ... and that's it ! I love paladins and NDKs too ! Twisted Evil
But I feel that you're a half empty glass kind of guy although I'm a half full glass kind !
I see our strength and you see our weaknesses...
It's fine by me : it's just 2 respectable different ways to apprehend the game ! 😉
Although I feel that purifiers are nerfed in the 8th ! (-1 attack and their psy power is not so powerful as before) and to be true I love fluffy lists with only TDA !! Twisted Evil
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