Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by hunter on Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:27 am

hehe well again thas would be a wast of an elite/hq slot but who knows may be a valid config if i want to play with an assasin in a SM army.

the idear is to have a nasty unit to guard my objective.

note a 10 man strong pgk team with justicar and 2 psicannon is still very formiteble .
capable of both long range fire suport and the last ting you want to take on in CC.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Constantine on Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:38 pm

Brother's,

Do you think that in a 6 man Grey Knight Terminator squad it would be strategically sound to give the Justicar a Psycannon and another member of the squad an Incinerator?

I have just recently bought a box of GKTs and wanted some feedback before I assemble them.

I have a GKT figure that I am going to use as either a BC or GM (depending on the objectives of the game), he has a Psycannon and NFW. I was planning on have him join a squad in a game which would make the squad have 2-Psycannons, an incinerator, and 4 standard GKTs!! Very Happy

What do you think?

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by NemesisForce on Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:09 pm

Psycannons are definitely worth it for Termies since they don't loose their NFW's like regular PAGK's do. My Termie with the incinerator is by far the single model that does the most damage game in and game out. Without fail. I'd drop my psyacannons before I'd drop him. Two pc's and a 'cinnie in one unit would rock.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Constantine on Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:18 pm

Thank you for the feed back Brother Nemisisforce!
I am pretty excited about building this retinue. I am going to go for the 2-Psycannon, incinerator mix.

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+++"There is nothing in the arcane and blasphemous arsenal of the forces of Chaos that can compare to faith. With the power of faith, our weapons become shining instruments of deliverance that can cleave the mightiest daemon in twain. With the power of faith, our minds appear as slivers of pure agony to the daemon, driving into the wretched forms of those who would dare stand before us. With the power of faith, our words become commands that cause the daemon to cower and cringe in terror. I could meet my enemies unarmed without a shred of fear in my chest, for I know that the Emperor watches over me and guides my hand. So let them come. We shall show them what the power of faith can do."+++ (Brother Captain Stern)

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Nyxos on Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:18 am

The more I read your posts the clearer it all became, then I went back to the Codex Daemonhunters and was confused again, here are some of my comments, and my conclusion.

1) Under Troops, Grey Knights, page 29, the model is called Grey Knight Justicar; any reader will infer that indeed the Justicar is in fact a Grey Knight. So far, all makes sense.

2) Under Special Daemonhunters notes, ‘Grey Knights’ Terminology, page 20, and the term ‘Grey Knight’ refers to among others to the Justicar. Although referred as a unit, the Justicar again is a Grey Knight. All right, this note reinforces item 1 above, it continues to make sense.

3) Under Daemonhunters Armoury, page 16, second paragraph, “Grey Knights in power armor may only choose items from the Wargear list, they are well trained in the blessed weaponry of their order and are forbidden to use lesser items.” So, items out of the Wargear are not blessed weaponry, and in fact they are lesser items, such as the Psycannon, and the Daemonhammer? No, this does not make any sense to me now.

4) Back to page 29, under Troops, Grey Knights,” up to two models may exchange their weapons for a psycannon…” No, this cannot be, the Psycannons are not listed under the blessed weapons of the Wargear, therefore this is not possible, logic is suffering greatly here.

5) Interesting comments about changing the armor of the Grey Knight, say the Justicar’s for something other than Power Armor, such as Artificer or Carapace armor. These items are part of the Wargear, they are blessed items and therefore usable to Grey Knights. So, if you have a Grey Knight model using any armor but Power Armor then the restriction is not applicable?

Well, it appears the consensus is that the Justicar cannot use the Psycannon, but honestly I don’t see from where in the codex it could be supported by logic, it is must certainly not supported by the fluff notes adorning the codex.


Here are other things that came to mind while I read the Justicar rules:

• Can a Brother Captain with his inherently natural Terminator Armor join a squad of Power Armored Grey Knights? If he is alone, he is considered an Independent Character; therefore he should be able to join a lesser squad of Power Armor Grey Knights, right?

• Can a Brother Captain in Terminator Armor use a Psycannon? The * shows that if you have Terminator Armor you can then use a Psycannon, but since Grey Knights are not allowed to use items outside the Wargear then they cannot use them in any event. This makes no sense, unless using a Terminator Armor unmakes you as Grey Knight.

• Is the Grey Knight Justicar from a Purgation Squad allowed to take a Psycannon? If he is, against all the rules of using a lesser non blessed weapon, will that make then a possible 5 Psycannon squad?

• Where does it say that if you add a weapon to your list, that you automatically put away in an inaccessible storage your other weapons? So, if you were to buy a model a Psycannon, and you wanted to and in fact bought that same model a Master Crafted Power Weapon and a Stormbolter as well, that during Close Combat resolution that the character would not be able to use his Master Crafted Weapon and Stormbolter to charge and vanquished the unclean! Again, the issue is not whether it is cost efficient or practical to do it. The issue is whether you could do it or not. Now, if you exchange something, then all right, but if I want to outfit my Brother Captain with a Psycannon, a Master Crafted Nemesis Force Weapon, and a Stormbolter, then by all means when he charges into Close Combat he most certainly is able to use those weapons instead of the two handed Psycannon. Am I right or wrong in this?

Why in the world would anyone want to write rules with so many logical flaws? My apologies if I am mudding the waters here, but the more I read the more confused I became.

My conclusion from your great posts and my less than clear reading of the written text in the last codex and FAQ list comes to:

The Justicar in the Power Armored Grey Knights Troop squad does not get to use a Psycannon.

• Because he would want his two lesser brothers to have a weapon with longer range and a stronger punch.
• Because a non-blessed item would be more appropriate in the hands of someone not as holy as a Justicar.
• Because the 3 swings of a Power Weapon during a charge would be negated by exchanging the weapon.

Thanks for any help.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Aubec le noir on Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:32 am

please make a difference between GK and GKPA : GKPA are part of GK.
only GK in PA can only take upgrades in the gear section of the arsenal (no weapons allowed) so yes technically a justicar in artififier armour could take weapon upgrade like psycannon ... but we all (nearly all Razz ) agree here to say that's not fluff and not in the spirit of the codex.

as for the BC : if he's independant yes he can go in a GKPA squad and yes he can take any upgrade he wants even the dreaded and feared psycannon !! Twisted Evil

no a purgation justicar can't take a psycannon (except if he's in artificier armour but yet again imho it's cheating No )

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by fa11en on Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:36 am

However according to GW in an old chapter approved Q&A psycannons are perfectly legal for Justicars, with no mention of needing to swap to Artificer Armour.

Page 4: Q. Are psycannons legal for Justicars/Grey Knight Heroes?
A. Yes indeed

Interstingly it goes on, on a subsequent page, to approve the concept of swapping a GK Heroes Terminator armour for Power or Artificer.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by MJSwasey on Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:40 am

Nyxos wrote:
• Can a Brother Captain with his inherently natural Terminator Armor join a squad of Power Armored Grey Knights? If he is alone, he is considered an Independent Character; therefore he should be able to join a lesser squad of Power Armor Grey Knights, right?

• Can a Brother Captain in Terminator Armor use a Psycannon? The * shows that if you have Terminator Armor you can then use a Psycannon, but since Grey Knights are not allowed to use items outside the Wargear then they cannot use them in any event. This makes no sense, unless using a Terminator Armor unmakes you as Grey Knight.

• Is the Grey Knight Justicar from a Purgation Squad allowed to take a Psycannon? If he is, against all the rules of using a lesser non blessed weapon, will that make then a possible 5 Psycannon squad?

• Where does it say that if you add a weapon to your list, that you automatically put away in an inaccessible storage your other weapons? So, if you were to buy a model a Psycannon, and you wanted to and in fact bought that same model a Master Crafted Power Weapon and a Stormbolter as well, that during Close Combat resolution that the character would not be able to use his Master Crafted Weapon and Stormbolter to charge and vanquished the unclean! Again, the issue is not whether it is cost efficient or practical to do it. The issue is whether you could do it or not. Now, if you exchange something, then all right, but if I want to outfit my Brother Captain with a Psycannon, a Master Crafted Nemesis Force Weapon, and a Stormbolter, then by all means when he charges into Close Combat he most certainly is able to use those weapons instead of the two handed Psycannon. Am I right or wrong in this?

Why in the world would anyone want to write rules with so many logical flaws? My apologies if I am mudding the waters here, but the more I read the more confused I became.

My conclusion from your great posts and my less than clear reading of the written text in the last codex and FAQ list comes to:

The Justicar in the Power Armored Grey Knights Troop squad does not get to use a Psycannon.

• Because he would want his two lesser brothers to have a weapon with longer range and a stronger punch.
• Because a non-blessed item would be more appropriate in the hands of someone not as holy as a Justicar.
• Because the 3 swings of a Power Weapon during a charge would be negated by exchanging the weapon.

Thanks for any help.

Yes, a solo GK Hero is an IC so is able to join squads regardless of armor type.
Terminators can indeed buy the psycannon, as it has the * and they are not prohibited from the "GK in POWER ARMOR can only take things under wargear" Rule.
On the top of our wargear page it says "characters can have a max of 2 weapons, one of which can be two handed."

In addition, the options built into squads say "exchange Nemisis force weapon and storm bolter for ____"

That FAQ is out of date and no longer valid - see the psyker section where it says 1/ game turn, but since that faq is now invalid (newer one out) we follow the BRB (big or Basic Rule Book) and can use 1/player turn.

The issue with justicars is that though their entry states they may take any allowed gear from the armoury, the armoury says GK (which include him) wearing power armor (yup he wears that) cannot take anything except wargear. The regular joe schmoes get around this because their unit entry give them the swap, they never have to buy from the armory so they never worry about its rules.

What SHOULD happen is GK in power armor should be allowed to take any item with a 3 next to it, regardless of being in the wargear list or not, however this is a case of the rule "can NOT rules take precedence over CAN rules" and some poor wording.

GK is notoriously poor at Logic in terms of wording and can's and cants - they make the fluff and then leave the players to try and interpret their crazy contradictory rules. A ton of rules questions are answered in FAQ's with "sure, why not? sounds good" because they themselves don't know the original intended reaction. GW's stance has always been: you guys WILL come across rules sitatuations that have no clear answer or seem entirely wonky - in that case just find an explanation that makes sense and get everyone to agree on it, we expect you to have to make your own rules a bit and we won't faq/eratta every case we find.



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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Nyxos on Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:11 am

Aubec le noir wrote:please make a difference between GK and GKPA : GKPA are part of GK. Aubec pirat

Brother Aubec, you are right, every time I think I know something I find out how little I know. Where in the Daemonhunter's Codex or the FAQ does it say, not where you can assume it, but where does it exactly say the kind of armour that a Grey Knight uses?

I see nothing that specifically says the Grey Knight troops use any armour other than Hexagrammic Aegis Armour, but I might be going blind. Please indicate the page number and paragraph where you read the differentiation of a Grey Knight and a Grey Knight in Power Armour, do the models cost a different amount of points? I see where I can buy Power Armour, or Carapace Armour, or Artificer Armour.

Does that mean then that the cost of 25 points shown in page 29 does not include any Power Armour? So, if I buy them Power Armour, the cost of each Grey Knight will go from 25 to 35 points (25 per model + 10 per each Power Armour)?

If we assume that they do have Power Armour, and you decide not to give it to them, then the cost of a regular Grey Knight without any armour would be 15 points each? (25 points with assumption of Power Armour minus the 10 points Power Armour costs = 15 Points). So, now a naked Grey Knight trooper is 15 points and you can go to Wargear and buy him a 15 point Artificer Armour for a total of 30 points per model, and these models would have a 2+ Armour Save.

Here are some of the combinations that come to mind.

1) Grey Knight as described, using Hexagrammic Aegis Armour = 25 points, no True Grit here, since it does not have Power Armour.

2) Grey Knight plus additional Power Armour = 25 + 10 = 35 points, True Grit is all right, these models have in fact 2 sets of armour on.

3) Grey Knight with no Hexagrammic Aegis Armour =?? points, so no True Grit for them either, but it should be a much cheaper model.

4) Grey Knight in Artificer Armour = 25 + 15 = 40 points, with extra suit of Hexagrammic Aegis Armour in backpack, or two sets of armor on, no True Grit here either since neither is Power Armour, unless you assume that is an upgrade to Power Armour, but where is it written?

5) Grey Knight in Carapace Armour = 25 + 5 = 30 points with extra suite of Hexagrammic Aegis Armor in backpack, or a model with two sets of armour, and since there is no Power Armour therefore there is no True Grit either, again, unless you assume that it is an upgrade to Power Armour, but I find no specific reference to it. In any event, it should not be, since the save it confers is less than just normal Power Armour.

Please note that the Grey Knight Troops have a 3+ Armour Save, page 29 of Codex Daemonhunters, but since they do not have any armour specifically included, it must be a different kind of save coming from their Hexagrammic Aegis Armour, but not an armour save. If it is armour save then they must have Power Armour as described in page 18, for only that armour can give the wearer a save of 3+. But it is not written directly, you can assume it, but you cannot read it directly, if you can, please show me the page number and paragraph.

Does anyone play Grey Knights with no Power Armour? That would be the only way I could see a differentiation between a Grey Knight and a Grey Knight in Power Armour.

Aubec le noir wrote:only GK in PA can only take upgrades in the gear section of the arsenal (no weapons allowed) Aubec pirat

Brother Aubec, the gear section of the codex includes weapons, a Digital Weapon; of course, it says it is only good for Inquisitors, not for Grey Knights, that must be the reason why it is included in there. However, Melta Bombs are weapons, Frag Grenades are weapons, Krak Grenades are weapons, and some might even say that making an existing weapon better is a type of weaponization, such as making a Daemonhammer into a Master Crafted Daemonhammer. And all those weapons other than the girly Digital Weapon can be used by Grey Knights.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the 3+ save included in page 29 must mean that ALL Grey Knights have Power Armour, all of them, everyone of them. If that is not the case then ALL Grey Knights must have a 3+ Invulnerable Save from their Hexagrammic Aegis Armour. In fact, I would argue that there is NO differentiation between a Grey Knight troop and a Grey Knight troop in Power Armour, it is embedded in the description, but it is an assumption. I want a rule that says exactly what you have and that you can interchange what you have if you pay the points when you construct your squads.

If you go to the commercial website things get even more confusing, the blisters say that the models have Power Armour, but the Codex only implies it, and let’s not even go into the heavy support issues either, we have some real problems there.

What we should do in the future is re-write the Codex, so that it has logic flow and good sense, not to mention a good spell check... In any event, the more I read the more I understand why I have collected models instead of playing them. The Daemonhunter Codex in its present state needs much logical flow and attention to detail for my peace of mind.

Thank you all for your comments and insights.


Last edited by Nyxos on Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Nyxos on Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:36 am

MJSwasey wrote:

The issue with justicars is that though their entry states they may take any allowed gear from the armoury, the armoury says GK (which include him) wearing power armor (yup he wears that) cannot take anything except wargear. The regular joe schmoes get around this because their unit entry give them the swap, they never have to buy from the armory so they never worry about its rules.

What SHOULD happen is GK in power armor should be allowed to take any item with a 3 next to it, regardless of being in the wargear list or not, however this is a case of the rule "can NOT rules take precedence over CAN rules" and some poor wording.


Thank you for the explanation Brother MJSwasey, the notes on page 16 do say that wargear must be represented on the models. However, where does it say that the Grey Knights and the Grey Knights Justicars start with Power Armour? In what page number and paragraph is that specifically stated?

It is implied by the 3+ save, but I would argue that save must be an Invulnerable Save since it comes from the Hexagrammic Aegis Armour. If it is not, then it should be, whether it is a 3+ or something else I do not know enough of the game to venture into that classification.

In reference to your statement on the use of items classifed with the "3" in page 16, I agree with you, since even by its definition, under the "3" the name Grey Knight is included. Why in the world wouldn't a Justicar of the Grey Knights NOT be allowed to use any weapon a normal Grey Knight is able to use? Unless the answer is in the fluff, I previously stated 3 reasons, all based on fluff, that could help.

Thank you very much for your soothing post and insights.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Aubec le noir on Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:38 am

i fixed my playing room 2 weeks ago (photos before and after will come soon Wink ) and since then i can't find my codex...
but :
1 / fluffwise the Aegis technics/technology/rites are just an upgrade for every armour used by the GK (including PA or terminator armour, even for dreadgnought if you take the vehicle upgrade). It's stated that those hexagrammes and abjuration lithanies are made to repulse deamons and warp creatures... no to make the saving an invulnerable saving (even if it would be cool !! Twisted Evil )
2 / in the rules stricto sensu : if i remember well the sprcial rules of the GK are in p 3 or 4 : that's where you have true grit and the description of the aegis that you have in the arsenal too.
3 / in the army list you have the equipment of every type or GK : HQ = terminator armour, other GK than Termies have Aegis and with the definition of the Aegis it matches Wink
4 / maybe i used the wrong word cause i'm french and play with the french translation of the codex (differences exist : for example in the french codex weapons are included in the 100 points of wargear) so i'll use the french words for the different part of wargear
- the wargear section is : Arsenal
- the weapon sub-section is : Armement
- the gear sub-section is : Equipement
- the psy powers sub-section is : Pouvoirs psychiques

in the very beginning of the "Arsenal" section it's stated that GKPA can only choose upgrades in the "équipement" part of the "arsenal", so now you can make the parallel between your codex and my french one (except for this poor translation that can't allow me to choose the weapons separetedly of 100 poinst of the wargear
Rolling Eyes Razz )

hope it might help

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by MJSwasey on Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:32 pm

Thank you, Brother! we live to serve, and despite the sometimes solid and matter of fact answers we give, as you ask questions we our pouring over the codex ourselves, going "is he right?" and learning more about the army, so thank you!

Nyxos wrote: Thank you for the explanation Brother MJSwasey, the notes on page 16 do say that wargear must be represented on the models. However, where does it say that the Grey Knights and the Grey Knights Justicars start with Power Armour? In what page number and paragraph is that specifically stated?
page 7, box at bottom, second paragraph
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1080218&rootCatGameStyle=
page 35 caption as well.
In 40K it's a well understood fact that 3+ saves on imperials are power armor, unless told otherwise. Armor type is usually not mentioned in a units description the way weapons are because it is implied due to the models "Sv" stat (yes this is terrible in terms of rules, welcome to GW games). Hexagrammic Aegis armor is mentioned as being old and annointed armor, not a different type of armor. It is, in fact, old and annointed Power Armor or Old and Annointed Terminator armor or Old and annointed.... well you get the picture. Think of it like master crafting, as an upgrade to the existing armor.

Nyxos wrote: It is implied by the 3+ save, but I would argue that save must be an Invulnerable Save since it comes from the Hexagrammic Aegis Armour. If it is not, then it should be, whether it is a 3+ or something else I do not know enough of the game to venture into that classification.

The "save" stat on a profile is always an armor save (and not an invulnerable) unless specified otherwise. Models with invulns will have statlines that say "SV: -/6" or 2/5 or whatever the saves may be, or a note saying the save is invulnerable. We would be nigh-unbeatable with 3+ invuln saves on our basic trooper.

Nyxos wrote: In reference to your statement on the use of items classifed with the "3" in page 16, I agree with you, since even by its definition, under the "3" the name Grey Knight is included. Why in the world wouldn't a Justicar of the Grey Knights NOT be allowed to use any weapon a normal Grey Knight is able to use? Unless the answer is in the fluff, I previously stated 3 reasons, all based on fluff, that could help.
fluff wise it truely does not make sense he can't use the weapon, but unfortunately GW has stated when two contradictory rules apply to specific situation (you CAN do this and you CAN'T do this) the can't wins. Since PAGK can't buy the weapons from the armory (though they can use them if they get them through other means, such as the swapping mentioned in each entry), its not an allowed weapon, and therefore the entry that says justicars may take allowed weapons doesn't include psycannons, if he is in power armor. Including the term "grey Knight" simply allows those models NOT in power armor that are grey knights to take those weapons.

The 25 points you pay for a grey knight includes everything in his entry, meaning the stat line (including save), weapons, etc. They must be taken exactly as is. You cannot take him at a cheaper cost with worse armor, nor can you buy them anything extra at all unless the codex specifically allows it (such as the justicar or two troopers getting special weapons).

This means that ALL Troops choice, Fast Attack Choice, and Purgitation Squads are Grey Knights in Power armor, with a 3+ ARMOR save. However, not all Grey Knights are in power armor. Terminators wear the "tactical dreadnaught armor" called terminator armor, as do our HQ choice GK. These are Grey Knights, but are NOT 'Grey Knights in Power Armor'.

*note: post heavily edited for coherency and to add new points as i reread alot of the codex

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Grimhack on Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:40 pm

Brother Nyxos, if I may say what I think then I think you've just stepped into the hobby of warhammer 40k, and you want to know everything already. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. The good thing is that you are highly motivated but the bad thing is that you get confused easily because you take everything literal and have little knowledge about the mystic wordings that GW often uses in order to corrupt lesser minds.
My advice is that you go to a local gamestore or friend and ask them if you can play a small game to learn the basic rules, without many upgrades and work a bit with getting to know the game. While learning this you can look at army lists that other brothers have put on this forum as a reference and you can ask questions if there are things you don't understand, something you are doing wonderfully and we're happy to help. After all, there aren't a lot of grey knight players and the ones that are here are surely dedicated. (Besides Ezekiel, ignore him for the time being Razz )

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Nyxos on Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:15 pm

MJSwasey wrote:page 7, box at bottom, second paragraph

Yes! Brother MJSwasey, in my book you are listed as a Master of Incendium!

That is right, page 7; second paragraph is the smoking gun. From there we can see logic structure that can withstand scrutiny.

The caption in page 35 can be open to interpretation, since they list Grey Knights in Power Armour, it could means only that those Grey Knights in the picture have it, it does not mean that all Grey Knights have to have it.

However, the reference in page 7 is flawless, and it sets the standard cleanly, and clearly, as if it had been purified by Promethium!
All right, now that I am at peace with my mind, at least in that issue, I will start constructing some lists with steadfast confidence.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Nyxos on Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:38 pm

Grimhack wrote:Brother Nyxos, if I may say what I think then I think you've just stepped into the hobby of warhammer 40k, and you want to know everything already. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. The good thing is that you are highly motivated but the bad thing is that you get confused easily because you take everything literal and have little knowledge about the mystic wordings that GW often uses in order to corrupt lesser minds.
My advice is that you go to a local gamestore or friend and ask them if you can play a small game to learn the basic rules, without many upgrades and work a bit with getting to know the game. While learning this you can look at army lists that other brothers have put on this forum as a reference and you can ask questions if there are things you don't understand, something you are doing wonderfully and we're happy to help. After all, there aren't a lot of grey knight players and the ones that are here are surely dedicated. (Besides Ezekiel, ignore him for the time being Razz )



Grimhack, I am glad to be in the presence of your greater mind, a mind that I am sure was never confused. A tenet of my life has always been never to be in a place where I am not free to make mistakes, ask questions, or feel free, to be of a lesser mind, to put it in your words.

As per your advice, I will always be profoundly great full. It is hard for a lesser mind, such as mine, to start a long journey by following the common standards found in local meeting places. When you have a lesser or fragile mind, a Tabula Rasa of sorts, Page 7 of the Daemonhunters Codex as well as the The Grey Knight Omnibus have something of this process, it is best, at least in my experience and for my case, to get things right from the beginning, so that strength may accompany you and your frailty in the road ahead. That was my intention when I registered here, to try and learn from the best, silly of me, that I never considered my own inferiority might be a cause of concern for you to have to bring it to my attention and the attention of all who might read my confusion.

Thinking over the fluff, perhaps you are right, my deliberations here might be out of place and represent a lesser mind, one not appropriate to be in your company. I will think on this and decide on partying ways for the benefit of everyone, after all, the weakest link or lesser mind, to use your words, is in my humble opinion, a weakness too many.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by MJSwasey on Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:46 pm

I don't think Grimhack meant it like your taking it, my friend.

He gives good advice - you could grain a 10x greater understanding from playing a few games and sitting down and making a list with a long time player in 10 minutes that you could spending hours talking about it online.

While we love to sharpen each others wits, sometimes it's best to absorb the basics wholesale and in person first before going over each part.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by NemesisForce on Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:06 pm

Nyxos, Grimhack meant no insult. He's just saying that the way GW does things, especially in the writing of rules, if you look hard and expect logic to come out of it you'll end up going bonkers. GW has never, and never will, fully thought out the broad implications of a particular rule. Grimhack is just suggesting that you'll learn more by actually going to war rather than trying to decipher the soldier's manual.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Aubec le noir on Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:51 am

brother Grimhack is right brother Nyxos : truth is in the battlefield !! Wink
you can rip your hair off trying to make the best list you can but you'll never think of every situations and then in the battlefield your beautiful list would look like crap !! Razz Razz
so : fight... loose ... and learn (cause you'll learn more from your loss Wink ) and then go back on tour with a better list (made with our very good advice Razz )
and then GK will prevail Twisted Evil
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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Grimhack on Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:29 am

As my brothers said, I didn't mean to insult you or anything but just that you learn more by trial and error than discussing about it. And about tricky rules, you can always ask your opponent what he thinks about them and go with what he says. Not only can this make it challenging for you and different every time, your opponent will also like you for it, because you took the time to clarify the grey zones together with him.
And remember that every plan stands until the first shots are fired.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Nyxos on Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:28 am

Grimhack, I see how you can be confused about these things. A lesser mind like yours would be confused with understanding that following local standards might do well for the local area but not for the greater picture. Learning to read and write well before you go to the Library would be very advantageous; learning to fight from the best before you go to war with one less prepared would also be advantageous to you and disadvantageous to your opponent.

Having a newcomer read, ask, search and research, and find conviction and a greater understanding of rules is advantageous to that person and even better to the Grey Knights as a whole. Learning from doing is fine so long as the groups you are learning from are competent, if they are not then you are learning to be mediocre. Do you want to be mediocre? Learning from a mediocre group, would maybe be acceptable to you with mediocre groups, but if you travel and encounter opponents of a higher caliber then you will poorly prepared.

Clarifying rules here, with the best, in these forums is the thing to do. Learning what is right and wrong here is the thing to do. Asking for interpretation and understanding here is the thing to do. These forums are the Promethium Fields; newcomers to the Grey Knights should walk these fields with confidence, and without concern that asking simple questions will confuse Grimhack and give him an opening to put them down. Do you call your younger brothers or sisters morons when they make a mistake? Do you do it when they ask a simple question? Did your parents called you of a lesser mind when you asked something simple? If yes, then you are excused, you know no better.

I would argue that these forums should be open for people to ask questions in good faith without concern other than knowledgeable comments. Give the people with enough desire to polish themselves before they go to war, freedom to explore and to do it on their own terms, and to be as prepared as they wish to before they wish to do otherwise. Finding page 7, bottom box, and second paragraph gives a great deal of logic to all the errors implied by poor writing everywhere else. It is this kind of finding that should be brought to the surface, not the simple efforts of an unfortunate soul that asked with innocence and good faith in the first place.

It hurts me more than you think to talk to you this way, but it is a well accepted maxim that you should speak to people in a language they clearly understand. Be thankful that I am not in a position of leadership here, if I was, I would bring Promethium, Incendium, and Blessed Oils to burn you at the stake, and after your cleansed soul showed no indication of mediocrity I would send it to the pool of initiates to earn its way back into the Grey Knights from step one, again.

I accept your apology.


Last edited by Nyxos on Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Grammar)

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Grimhack on Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:38 am

Right, I'm not even going to respond to that anymore because you misunderstood what I meant with my first response and tried to explain it a bit better.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by MJSwasey on Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:37 pm

So we can all agree to move past, forgive and forget, etc, right? Great.

Interesting question:

Would attaching a Inquisitor (the 20 pt kind) with some kind of armor and a psycannon be better anyways? he's got two wounds, costs a hell of a lot less, and allows you to take assassins, still has BS 4, and can detach before assaults.

for 70 points you can get a termi-inquis with psycannon, which is IMO the best deal, although many of us may opt for the 65 point artificer inquis with psyker just for modeling reasons.

ALSO- they can have psychic powers. This means you can give regular GK squads a guy with holocaust, or load up on word of the emporer if you have the assasin who lowers leadership and gets +1 shot per psyker

wow, that actually looks like a neat combo. 2 troops squads, each with two psycannons, inquisitors with psycannons, and culexus assassin. 6 psycannons shooting, two scoring units, need a ld7 test to assault them (or they get holocaust) and the assassin gets 6 AWESOME shots. throw in the holy relic for even more defensive fun.

I think the only downside is an extra kill point, which is a mission we're ahead usually anyway. I definitely think I'm going to give the psycannon inquisitor a try!

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by NemesisForce on Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:33 pm

And you don't lose the Justicar's 3 power attacks. Cool idea MJ. Let us know how it works for you. The thought of three-psycannon squads give me the happy shivers.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by Nyxos on Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:40 pm

You can also include for his Retinue a total of 3 Warrior Henchmen; all 3 can have a combination of Heavy Long Range weapons. I mostly see 2 Heavy Bolters and one Plasma Cannon in lists that I have researched. Of course with the other 3 henchmen you can insure some help in case the Plasma gets hot, and even the ability to have a nearby unit shoot for you any deep striking enemy units.

While we are in this subject, I have a question in reference to the inquisitorial abilities. For the sake of example only, and not for efficiency or practicality of point and ability distribution, only for resolving the question on shooting and having other units nearby you shoot deep striking enemy units.

Please consider the following scenario, let’s assume distance rolls are all rolled and acquired, and tell me if this is possible.

HQ Unit has:
1 Inquisitor Lord (Psycannon, and Auspex)
3 Warrior Henchmen (2 Heavy Bolters, 1 Plasma Cannon)
2 Mystic Henchmen

Heavy Support Unit (parked in cover within 2 inches of the HQ unit)
Land Rider (Two Side Sponson Twin Linked Las Cannons, Twin Linked Heavy Bolters, Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter)

Let’s say, an enemy unit, Swooping Hawks, Deep Strikes within 2 inches of the HQ Unit. Can the Inquisitor Lord use his acquired abilities through having 2 Mystic Henchmen to order the Heavy Support Unit to shoot these miscreants, and then through having his personal Auspex proceed to have his HQ Unit shoot them as well in the same instant?

Thank you.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

Post by MJSwasey on Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:14 am

I like the idea of henchmen squads, but in practice the only problem i have with the henchmen is when the inquisitor take them he then cannot join a GK squad. Without the GK squad he doesn't benefit from shrouding, the t4 majority, or all those 3+ saves, so people just shoot the heck out of your 5-6 guardsmen equivalent models until they all die. let me know if you get that to work out for you. i see the alcolytes in artificer armor, but then the squad starts getting pointsy..... it just nevery works out to something i feel comfortable taking.

By having 2 mystics, the inquisitor CAN have the heavy support (or any other unit within 12", or his unit) take free shots at those deep strikers.

However, the auspex only allows shots versus infiltrators. infiltrating is it's own special way to deploy, and deep striking is not infiltrating, therefore the auspex will never 'go off' and you wont get the shots from it.

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Re: Psycannon Justicar, What do you think?

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