Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

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Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Andarius the Red on Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:51 pm

The debate about Kaldor Draigo being released from his duties as a Supreme Grand Master was an interesting argument, yet another has come up that I just had to ask:

Is Inquisitor Karamazov a traitor to the Imperium of Man? His judgements, decrees and punishments are so sloppy (and whimsical) that one wonders if he's as much a threat to the Imperium as the enemy he claims to fight against.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Aubec le noir on Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:27 am

power brings to corruption and, to high power high corruption !  Evil or Very Mad 
i never liked Karamazov anyway !  Evil or Very Mad ... Wink 
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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Sai on Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:03 pm

Karamazov is a blunt weapon, and like every weapon he has his uses.
Have you read Draco (used to be Inquisitor)? At the beginning of the book Draco has a Puritan 'charge round shouting witch and shooting things' inquisitor on the planet so that he can go about his business while everyone is looking at the fool with a badge/inquisitorial seal.
Karamazov is an excellent weapon of misdirection- the heretics focus so much on hiding from the man on the walking throne with a multimelta and big sword, that they don't realise the one they should really fear is the man with with digi-weapons who they think is a black market merchant.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Constantine on Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:54 pm

Extreme behaviours make for better reading/fluff! and Inquisitors definitely like to hang out on each end of the spectrum…Puritans burning everything in sight due the slightest perception of corruption, and radicals wielding the enemies weapons against them.
There will always be an objection from somewhere regardless of the approaches taken. I believe that there is a balance between the two approaches that is more favourable than either extreme. As such, I would not like to see the pendulum swing too far in either direction. Let the Inquisitors' actions create balance and hope that the Grey Knights' mighty Brotherhoods can clean up the mess.

Short answer…. IMHO Karamazov should not be declared a traitor!
Awesome topic though! Wink

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Andarius the Red on Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:03 pm

I disagree, his short sighted efforts have caused far more harm then good and other such inquisitors regardless of their past records who have done the same were punished for it. One such example is Inquisitor Kryptman who was the discoverer of the first Tyranid invasion known as Hive Fleet Behemoth. He aided in the hive's defeat with the forces of Macragge but his methods afterward became more out of desperate fear. The most notable and heinous being the mass culling of loyal worlds to steer Hive Fleet Leviathan into the Ork ruled Octavian Sector, declaring exterminates on dozens of planets to do so. It was considered the worst act of genocide since the Horus Heresy, and when the Orks took the dead worlds for themselves not only was Inquisitor Kryptman branded a radical but declared Carta Extremis, striping him of his title and responsibilities and shunned by the Inquisition as a whole! (Some wanted him punished as a traitor)

Karamazov has made hundreds of enemies among the loyal inquisition and for good reason, he feels he is answerable to no one but the Emperor himself and blatantly ignores or refuses orders and commands from higher ranking Inquisitor lords. His most bitter of opponents are among the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Sororitas for his actions on Salem Proctor after executing a preacher who rallied a rebellion against a corrupted Cardinal on that world. Granted evidence was found that some in the preacher's flock were tainted by the warp, said evidence was only made available AFTER he was tried without cross examination and executed by incineration privately by his command. Leaving more questions than answers.

Finally as my personal belief on the subject if you flat out don't care that the person you kill is a traitor or not before sending him off to be burned alive at the stake, not only have you failed to route out chaos but every innocent life you send to death is a victory to the true enemy, and they thank you for it.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Constantine on Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:26 am

I love these conversations!
In "real life" i agree with you Brother. But for the sake of having a great conversation with you, and to play devils advocate  Twisted Evil I am continuing the conversation using 40K logic. As such, I ask that you take the comments below in the friendly conversational context they are offered in.  Very Happy 

I disagree that Karamanov is short sighted. He is true to the the Emperor's plan set THOUSANDS of years ago, and believes that it should be left to unfold without intervention… How can you argue with his logic that the Emperor knows best?

I am unfamiliar with Karamanov's involvement with the Hive fleet Behemoth, but if my memory serves me correctly…we won. These are no mere battles, and we can not judge Karamanov so harshly, how many lives/worlds would have been lost had he not taken these actions, could Terra herself have been invaded?

Karamanov arrested Icarael on Salem Proctor, taking him to the Inquisition fortress of Serevian and placing him in the Chamber of Truth and Penitence. For six months, Karamazov subjected Icarael to all the torments and theological arguments at his disposal, ignoring the repeated demands of other Inquisitors and members of the Ecclesiarchy who wished to see Icarael.

If Karamanov were rash, he would have executed Icarael immediately and not spent 6 months interrogating him, which is very out of character for the trigger happy Inquisitor. Taint was present in his followers. Icarael could quite easily have been an unsuspecting pawn/puppet in a bigger game that Karamanov uncovered.

And really, where do you draw the morality line? Are not the practices of the Grey Knights themselves "questionable"? Innocents executed to bless bullets and armour, populations executed to protect anonymity, sisters of battle executed to perform rituals, etc… Even the Emperor himself receives sacrifices. This is the grim dark future brother, and there is only war.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Andarius the Red on Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:10 pm

The Emperor does know best but it is also easy for people to twist his words to suit their personal intentions. If Karamazov was a 'true' follower of the Emperor's decrees, wishes and intent for the Imperium at large he would go about at a rational manner by weeding out corruption and repairing the damage left behind to keep the Imperial engine going like other Inquisitors. Such examples of pious inquisitors are Corteaz who rules over several worlds with an iron but firm grip, Eisonhorn who revolutionized the use of 'blank' psykers as defence against the sorcerous and deamonic, Ravenor who's writings are considered both brilliant and required reading among initiates and Commodus Voke a legend among his peers in routing the daemon from Imperil worlds, he even killed a daemon through sheer willpower alone!!!

Karamazov is the kind of Inquisitor lord that would just execute whole swaths of people without batting an eyelash for no other reason then because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. His mantra is "There is no such thing as a plea of innocents in my court, a plea of innocents is guilty of wasting my time, GUILTY!" The fact that he would even find a single corrupt citizen out of a town worth of people he would execute would be happenstance then actual inquiry. That's just being sloppy and causing more harm than good.

As for our own actions as the Grey Knights the answer is far more complex. An untrained human mind cannot hope to withstand or comprehend the living insanity that is chaos without being blemished by it, madness is both expected and inevitable after such exposure. Execution is merely a somber mercy for those who we know cannot live a normal life after such an ordeal. As for anonymity we have waged wars where the local populaces were non the wiser of our identity or role, after all we are in no position to say who we are when asked. Such as the liberation of Beroghast, When Waaaagh! Snappaklaw descended on the frozen world the Grey knights routed the green skins into retreat in a matter of days. When authorities arrived after our departure the locals only had the knowledge that grey armored heroes saved their world. And Nothing Else!

I fully understand sacrifices must be made, but Fyodor Karamazov does not sacrifice, he throws lives away.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Rion on Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:40 pm

I agree Fyodor Karamazov is more dangerous then he is useful. Even as a misdirection tool. There are better ways then his. If given the choice I'd follow Coteaz over Karamazov and I consider myself something of a radical.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Constantine on Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:01 pm

All of the inquisitors have their "qwerks", in much the same way as space marine chapters do. Some are Killy, some are logical, some are noble, etc...

Diversity is inevitable, and it seems that the only focus in 40k is outcomes. The bottom line is that Fyodor Karamazov gets the job done, and the fact that innocent lives must be so freely given up to his actions is unfortunate, but at the end of the day his methods work on some perverse level and that is all the high council of Terra cares about.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by first strike on Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:32 am

There are no innocent lives, everybody is guilty of something, they just have not been caught yet. Kill them all and let the Emperor decide for himself. After all he cannot be everywhere, but we can send them to him

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Corennus on Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:06 am

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

"You ask what right do I have to destroy a billion innocent lives. I ask you what right do you have to let them live?"

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Constantine on Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:57 am

exactly.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by DonFer on Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:13 pm

This feels like we are all in a Conclave deep down the Fortress Monastery in Titan. So cool.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Thunder Shark on Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:44 am

I thought about this before. One argument in favor of declaring him a traitor is that he is simply being lazy by putting people random people to death that may or may not be innocent to painful deaths just for being in the wrong place in the wrong time.

Also some radical and rationally minded inquisitors might want him declared traitor believing him to be out of control.

Spoiler Warning*
Those who read Grey Knights might remember when a female inquisitor freshly declared a heretic commented that essentially being declared a traitor was inevitable.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Andarius the Red on Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:23 pm

first strike wrote:There are no innocent lives, everybody is guilty of something, they just have not been caught yet. Kill them all and let the Emperor decide for himself. After all he cannot be everywhere, but we can send them to him

If I recall there was a 'Loyalist' Space Marine chapter named the Marines Malevolent who shared in this philosophy. To date they are despised by other loyal chapters for the callous disregard for collateral damage, bystanders and basic camaraderie. The Salamanders Chapter nearly declared full out war on the chapter for their behaviour and actions whenever they crossed each other's paths. Most notable is the 3rd Armageddon war where the Marines Malevolent, Salamanders and half a dozen other chapters were sent to rescue the planet from Ork invasion and keep the forge world in production. Instead the Marines Malevolent used the populace (rescued earlier by the Salamanders) as bait to lure in and destroy invading Ork forces, killing thousands of people and destroying several manufactorums in the process. So furious of their actions Chapter Master Tu'shan of the Salamanders struck the commander of the Marines Malevolent without even issuing a duel!

This chapter has been censured several times by the Inquisition for their apathy towards imperial citizens, guardsmen and even other loyal marine chapters during wartime as there has been several documented reports of the Marines Malevolent's piratical behaviour towards loyalist forces, they have even been cut off by the Adeptus Mechanicus for unknown reasons. They feel answerable to no one and that all their actions are justifiable in the eyes of the Emperor.

The only reason these psychopaths haven't been declared traitors is because they haven't OFFICIALLY declared war on the Emperium, and yet they are doing the exact same thing Chaos Space Marines are doing now.

Karamazov is pretty much acting the same way, wiping out whole civilizations under the pretense of corruption. But is he doing the right thing in the name of the Emperor, or whatever the hell he wants?

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Thunder Shark on Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:55 pm

I've heard of the Marine Melevolent glad you mentioned them as they are perhaps that least moral chapter in the Imperium.

Back to our friend Fyodor it should be noted that most imperial citizens live awful lives to the point of being a living hell. Karamazov probably knows this(maybe even experienced it prior to his training) and thus he does not feel bad about killing the innocents since it will end their oppressed lives even if they die as traitors.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Andarius the Red on Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:18 pm

I doubt he sees any of his decrees as an act of mercy.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Thunder Shark on Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:34 am

What could happen is he might be posthumously labeled a heretic.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Constantine on Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:30 pm

Innocence proves nothing. The ends justify the means.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Thunder Shark on Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:34 pm

Constantine wrote:Innocence proves nothing. The ends justify the means.

To think if someone wore a T-shirt saying that in an active courtroom.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Constantine on Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:13 pm

Thunder Shark wrote:
Constantine wrote:Innocence proves nothing. The ends justify the means.

To think if someone wore a T-shirt saying that in an active courtroom.

Lol! Indeed.
That's the beauty of these conversations being based in a fictional universe, you can get away with anything.
What is considered heroism to some is heresy to others.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

Post by Thunder Shark on Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:36 am

Which reminds me how I like to use the bad a** incident with Icareal as an example if the importance of thinking differently.

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Re: Should Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov be declared a traitor?

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