Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

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Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Sai on Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:59 am



Brother Constantine here Brothers.
Bear with me. I have split the Is the Humble LR dead thread where it turned to a NDK discussion (or as close to as I could get, damn scatter rules!!!Razz )
Thank you for your understanding


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



How is this even going to scratch the pain of the usual eldar spam I face?
It's not, it's for taking down a battle titan.

You don't need to scratch the paint of eldar spam because there is no beating it.  You're lost.  Your only option is to take stealth land raiders and hope they fail some 3++ saves to your handful of lascannons because anything else is just a points sink.  

To be honest, the only real answer is delivered from the dark depths of the 80's when Rogue Trader was king:


Just stop playing against serpent spam, those guys are reprobates.  They're even worse than the kind of people who organise a Grey Knight army to take the maximum number of psycannons and expect it to win the game for them.

Also, reprobate is a good word that actually matches their unprincipled approach to the game.  We should all use it more.


The hammer was always good because it has flexibility, and the Grey Knights rely on flexibility to make up for their low model count.  The others variants are solely assault vehicles:  You're going to put a squad inside and drive straight at the enemy.  You know it, your opponent knows it, your dog has probably learned that the box thing goes across the table in a mostly straight line.  It's predictable, and before your tank can real have a physical effect on the game it has to get very close to anyone with melta weapons and meltabombs and you'll likely be driving so fast you're only firing snapshots, if at all.  That said, it can force your opponent to redeploy to deal with it, which might be massively valuable if it gets enemy units where you want them.

The regular landraider provides long range AT, which your army lacks, and can fight at any range while alternatively fulfilling the same jobs as the variants.  The fact that there are fewer weapons that can penetrate the tank's armour means it's less likely to be destroyed outright, especially at range.  There are other reasons, but mostly it's hard to kill it and it can blow stuff up without a 2 turn drive at the enemy.

'What about a nice game of chess?'

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Constantine on Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:24 am

lol.
Nice clip, and good points.

_________________
+++"There is nothing in the arcane and blasphemous arsenal of the forces of Chaos that can compare to faith. With the power of faith, our weapons become shining instruments of deliverance that can cleave the mightiest daemon in twain. With the power of faith, our minds appear as slivers of pure agony to the daemon, driving into the wretched forms of those who would dare stand before us. With the power of faith, our words become commands that cause the daemon to cower and cringe in terror. I could meet my enemies unarmed without a shred of fear in my chest, for I know that the Emperor watches over me and guides my hand. So let them come. We shall show them what the power of faith can do."+++ (Brother Captain Stern)

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Pyriel on Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:38 am

Well, from my games serpent spam is quite easily beatable by gk but only if you use at least 2 LRs, taking down those serpents carrying wraithguard/firedragons quickly and you pretty much won game and the usual serpent spam sees 2 anti tank serpents and the rest 3-4 being stuffed with dire avengers with the rest consisting of the odd prism, wraithknight and jet bikes/council.

All those serpents are worthless since he spends big points on taking a semi tank that rolls over ANYTHING AV10-12 you put out and all of a sudden you deprive him of targets turning his serpents into overcosted transports where only on average two of them can kill your LRs if they get close enough and you fail your LR cover save (a libby is the second key to winning vs eldar).

The shunting dreadknight is there solemnly for taking out that odd wraithknight hiding in the back unsupported (or riptide) and here is where the cheap hammer shines over the overpriced greatsword, it has S10 and on a 2+ you force kill any wraithknight/riptide/tyranid super monster/iron arm MC/deamon prince etc instead of having to shell out points for a ridiculous sword that often needs a 6 even to wound something. Besides, the hammer will ID the usual nurgle oblits and otehr multi wound T5 things without risking a force roll.


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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Sai on Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:09 am

See, no worries Very Happy


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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Pyriel on Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:25 am

True but the worries are more of its drop dead boring.
Look at the meta today outside that odd cozy fluff-only gaming garage.

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Sai on Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:49 am

A lot of the people who play are unimaginative and even more socially awkward than I am. Many of them also lack any kind of tactical sense, instead relying on their list-based on what the internet people say- to see them through rather than actually playing the game. For them, the list making IS the game. As far as they're concerned it's about budgeting and-power to-point-ratios rather than the actual wargaming part. Asking them to get in the spirit of game and have fun with it is like asking them to grow wings and cruise the stratosphere using only the odd fart for propulsion.

Basically they'd probably be happier playing Warmachine.

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Thraxdown on Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:53 am

Pyriel wrote:
The shunting dreadknight is there solemnly for taking out that odd wraithknight hiding in the back unsupported (or riptide) and here is where the cheap hammer shines over the overpriced greatsword, it has S10 and on a 2+ you force kill any wraithknight/riptide/tyranid super monster/iron arm MC/deamon prince etc instead of having to shell out points for a ridiculous sword that often needs a 6 even to wound something. Besides, the hammer will ID the usual nurgle oblits and otehr multi wound T5 things without risking a force roll.

Now I'm even more confused. Can't we get that with just the two doomfists while gaining an attack?

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Sai on Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:59 am

You don't lose an attack for having the hammer. I don't recall what you gain apart from making your attacks concussive

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Thraxdown on Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:07 am

Sai wrote:A lot of the people who play are unimaginative and even more socially awkward than I am.  Many of them also lack any kind of tactical sense, instead relying on their list-based on what the internet people say- to see them through rather than actually playing the game.  For them, the list making IS the game.  As far as they're concerned it's about budgeting and-power to-point-ratios rather than the actual wargaming part.  Asking them to get in the spirit of game and have fun with it is like asking them to grow wings and cruise the stratosphere using only the odd fart for propulsion.

Basically they'd probably be happier playing Warmachine.
It's weird, cause for me list making is one of the best parts of the game. But it's fun in the fact of trying different things and seeing how well it works, or figuring out what it's strengths are and trying to find a way to exploit that in the game. Making lists of "I need to fit x amount of y's into all of my lists." You're right that it's unimaginative and takes a lot of fun out of the game.

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Thraxdown on Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:09 am

Sai wrote:You don't lose an attack for having the hammer.  I don't recall what you gain apart from making your attacks concussive
You don't lose an attack, but you don't gain extra attack for two CCW like you do with the sword and the doomfist because the hammer is a specialist weapon. Unless I'm interpreting that rule wrong or overlooking something else.

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Pyriel on Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:12 am

For me its the challenge of out thinking the opponent AND having a history/story in the game AND using fun units such as legion of the damned etc all while eating home baked pie and talking crap rather then power to point spam but I am often forced to do the latter to stand a chance of winning.

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Constantine on Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:30 am

I think that we all know we cant change what others do, and how they choose to play. I know that you are all great strategists and even better sportsman, I wish we all lived closer and could actually game together, it would solve a lot of our problems.

That being said, I think that having somewhere to rant is very important, and even though it doesn't change the situation it does make us feel better.

Now where can I get some of that home baked pie?

_________________
+++"There is nothing in the arcane and blasphemous arsenal of the forces of Chaos that can compare to faith. With the power of faith, our weapons become shining instruments of deliverance that can cleave the mightiest daemon in twain. With the power of faith, our minds appear as slivers of pure agony to the daemon, driving into the wretched forms of those who would dare stand before us. With the power of faith, our words become commands that cause the daemon to cower and cringe in terror. I could meet my enemies unarmed without a shred of fear in my chest, for I know that the Emperor watches over me and guides my hand. So let them come. We shall show them what the power of faith can do."+++ (Brother Captain Stern)

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Sai on Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:38 am

I always figured you got the extra attack anyway because it specifically mentions two doomfists in the armylist. FAQ backs this idea:

Q: Does a Dreadknight armed with two Nemesis doomfists get an extra attack in close combat? (p34)
A: Yes.

Although the hammer does look cool

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Amion Lightbringer on Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:55 am

Using the Nemesis Daemon Hammer means a dreadknight has str10 ap2, like the Doomfists, but attack at full initiative, wich is great with a nemesis force weapon...
besides, even if not written anywhere, it's possible to suppose that even the sword attack str10 ap2, full ini and repeat die rolls... but I'm still searchin in the rules

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Souba on Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:03 pm

its in the grey knight FAQ:

Q: Does a Nemesis Dreadknight armed with a Nemesis greatsword
have 4 Attacks at Strength 10 that, because of the Nemesis
greatsword, can re- roll To Hit, To Wound and Armour Penetration
rolls?(p54)
A: Yes

Smile

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Amion Lightbringer on Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:05 pm

so the dreadknight armed with sword still attack initiative 1?

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Thraxdown on Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:57 pm

Sai wrote:I always figured you got the extra attack anyway because it specifically mentions two doomfists in the armylist.  FAQ backs this idea:

Q: Does a Dreadknight armed with two Nemesis doomfists get an extra attack in close combat? (p34)
A: Yes.

Although the hammer does look cool
Right, you get 4 base and 5 on the charge with the doomfists because they count as 2 ccw. But if you take the hammer it follows thunder hammer rules which include the Specialist Weapon special rule which says the model with it does not receive the +1 attack for fighting with two weapons unless the other weapon is also a specialist weapon. I don't think the doomfists are specialist weapons so i think if you took the hammer you lose an attack and just get the 3 base attacks and 4 on the charge. The only advantage I see to the hammer is they have the concussive special , but I don't know if that's worth paying for in points and one less attack.

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Constantine on Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:21 pm

Based on your interpretation Brother Thraxdown, I would agree that the two fists are a better option than the hammer.

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Pyriel on Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:08 pm

I missed the sword giving S10, this is good news, sorry for my mistake, mea culpa.

Why I dont like the first is that they are S6 and today the GK need to combat T6-T8 things and more with the prevailence of iron arm.
You just cant take a 205+ points shunting walker, jump it near to a T6 W6 wraithknight hope it survives with a wound to spare and then charge in counting on that 6 to wound roll in order to force kill it.
It is actually vs most things a better deal to use that cheap hammer since if even with one less attack you wound all things in the game on a 2+.


Constantine:
You ever get your ass to my parts of the world we will have a game, pies included:)
As a matter of fact, I am trading heavily right now and there is a chance it might go extremely well in a year or three. If so I will invite you guys over at my expense for a gaming week of pure fun, sun, beach and surf so wish me well (since luck has little to do with it).

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Constantine on Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:14 pm

Consider yourself well wished Brother!!!!

I think we need to get this thread back to Land Raiders.
Feel free start a NDK thread. I can even start one and move the NDK material to it....I think, LOL!
Let me know.

_________________
+++"There is nothing in the arcane and blasphemous arsenal of the forces of Chaos that can compare to faith. With the power of faith, our weapons become shining instruments of deliverance that can cleave the mightiest daemon in twain. With the power of faith, our minds appear as slivers of pure agony to the daemon, driving into the wretched forms of those who would dare stand before us. With the power of faith, our words become commands that cause the daemon to cower and cringe in terror. I could meet my enemies unarmed without a shred of fear in my chest, for I know that the Emperor watches over me and guides my hand. So let them come. We shall show them what the power of faith can do."+++ (Brother Captain Stern)

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Sai on Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:01 am

Probably probably move this to a NDK thread.

I always thought the doomfists made him S10 anyway on account of being dreadnought close combat weapons.  I just looked it up on google and saw the argument that they're S6, but look at it this way- why does the great sword make it S10 if the other doom fist isn't boosting the strength?  The sword doesn't do that.
I guess I'll have to settle it with people before a game starts in the future, but no-one's ever called me up on it before.

Go kick some Pyriel.

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Corennus on Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:51 am

Greatsword is now Str 10 per the codex FAQ and yes can we back to the idea of the LAND RAIDER??? lol

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Thraxdown on Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:41 am

Sai wrote:
I always thought the doomfists made him S10 anyway on account of being dreadnought close combat weapons.  I just looked it up on google and saw the argument that they're S6, but look at it this way- why does the great sword make it S10 if the other doom fist isn't boosting the strength?  The sword doesn't do that.
I guess I'll have to settle it with people before a game starts in the future, but no-one's ever called me upon it before.

Go kick some Pyriel.  
You are correct, it follows the dreadnought ccw rules so it's double strength. There's not much of an argument the fists are strength 6, it's pretty clear to me. The sword being Strength 6 was a legitimate argument I think before the FAQ's came out, but the FAQ's make it cut and dry now. I don't know understand the ruling, but it makes our dreadknights better so yay us.

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Constantine on Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:50 am

So could someone summarize what has been decided upon here in regards to the NDK's weapons please?

Fists - Strength - Initiative...
Hammer - Strength - Initiative - concussive...
Sword - Strength - Initiative - re-rolls...



_________________
+++"There is nothing in the arcane and blasphemous arsenal of the forces of Chaos that can compare to faith. With the power of faith, our weapons become shining instruments of deliverance that can cleave the mightiest daemon in twain. With the power of faith, our minds appear as slivers of pure agony to the daemon, driving into the wretched forms of those who would dare stand before us. With the power of faith, our words become commands that cause the daemon to cower and cringe in terror. I could meet my enemies unarmed without a shred of fear in my chest, for I know that the Emperor watches over me and guides my hand. So let them come. We shall show them what the power of faith can do."+++ (Brother Captain Stern)

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

Post by Thraxdown on Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:14 am

Fists and sword get the +1 attack for two CCW as well

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Re: Nemesis Dread Knight Discussion

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