The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

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The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Corennus on Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:12 am

The humble land raider in 6th......

4 hull points, AV 14, Assault Vehicle. Still an iconic transport that everyone loves to see (unless you're out of anti-tank) trundling towards them. And let's face it, they are COOL.

BUT, have they been rather overshadowed by the Stormraven?

The biggest drawback to the land raider has always been its speed. It can't eat up the table fast enough to disgorge its cargo of terminators/purifiers/deathcult assassins, which means it will always be subject to facing gauntlet of lascannon/melta death. Yes in 6th the meta has changed more to plasma with more ranged weapons becoming AP4 or AP3, but melta doing even MORE damage with +2 on vehicle damage table, the land raider is now even more vulnerable.

Add to this the fact that the land raider is severely hampered by the following:

There is no such thing as defensive weapons any more. so all Hurricane bolters can't all be fired after moving. and Land Raider Redeemers suffer even more cause of laughably short range. So that leaves godhammer.....

Compare this to the Stormraven.

melta doesn't get the double D6 roll against it. Is a flyer so most weapons need a 6+ to hit. It gets a jink (4+) coversave from said weapons.....
And it can fire most weapons. especially if it switches to hover mode.


Only thing I can think would make land raider viable (an expensive way of doing it!) would be warp field stabiliser and librarian Summoning it!


your thoughts?

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by first strike on Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:37 pm

I dont think it is dead, melta was always the best way to deal with a land raider, and now there is less of it going around (I and most others will always bring a few melta guns) but you can avoid them now (it used to be the go to weapon in every squad that could take it). Landraiders are far from slow, you can still get 2nd turn charges off, I just think that we may have to go back to the way we used to run, one for every 500pts. So at 1750 you would have 3 and a storm raven.

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Pyroa7xhavik on Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:26 pm

I ran two today it took 9 lascannons to finally kill it but its one of those thing where it can die fast if they have the right stuff I've noticed more people brining anti air stuff so when I throw a LR at them there anti air is not much of a threat still have to look out for MC and Meltas of course

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Souba on Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:41 pm

its always a matter of the meta. many of us know those guys who play lists like the serpent spam... or the good ol max riptide + misslepod broadsidespam... landraiders ruin those guys days. eldar almost got nothing against it, as most no longer take bright lances or play many firedragons. tau. well yeah there is that melta weapon.. but very few play crisis suits. sadly... the riptide can blast it with S9 but only with nova charging and yeah... if the tau player has to use his riptides to pop up landraiders. its firepower that is wasted big time.

the meta goes more towards plasma/midstrength weaponry because vehicles in general are more vulnerable thanks to hull points. many have the mindset of "well i dont only have to pen, a glance is enough", landraiders become more awesome because of that. especially compared to stormravens. many play that quad gun and well... a landraider does not care at all about that, while a stormraven can crash and burn with one intercept if lucky. yes lucky 4 shots but hey. normally it takes more than 9 BS 4 lascannon shots to destroy a landraider.

its always a thing of how well you know your enemy and the current meta but for me landraiders became more awesome.
i tried dark angel banner of devastation landraider crusader lists and ohh boy. those ruin some guys days big time.
i also play my marines with 2-3 landraiders now and totally ignore stormravens/stormtalons. my shit gets the job done from turn 1 onwards. rather than turn 2+.

but thats always personal opinion i guess Smile

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Pyroa7xhavik on Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:54 pm

Nice which LR do u prefer?

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Constantine on Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:47 pm

Long live the LR!!!!!!!!!cheers 

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Amion Lightbringer on Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:39 am

LR will always be the 1st choice, even if in big armies i prefer 2 raider and 1 SR... so my 3rd heavy support may be the dreadknight... we can't take it as dedicated transport, or i should take 4!

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by DonFer on Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:59 am

LR are the reason Blood Angels are not dead. I saw a chaos list with three LR, Dirge Caster and Abbaddon and ripped appart Tau/Eldar list. i mean literally, once the three LRs where at the Tau player's face it was game over.

So yeah LRs are great now that melta is on the way down.

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Souba on Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:00 pm

Pyroa7xhavik wrote:Nice  which LR do u prefer?
i prefer all 3. and mostly mix em dependent on the units they carry. if its a big terminator/paladin unit, most likely the crusader. if its for some purifiers/space marine honorguard i prefer the redeemer.

the godhammer is still very viable. i mostly play all 3, the godhammer with vanilla gear while the redeemer and crusader always get the additional multimelta.

for my dark angels.. its easy... 3+ landraider crusaders with multimeltas. having the banner of devastation allows each landraider to fire 24 twin linked bolter shots up to 24". wich is, even though its small arms fire, quiet "devastating" Very Happy

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Corennus on Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:43 am

The problem with the redeemer is how on earth do you get the most out of those flamestorm cannons? Personally I think Heavy Incinerators would be so much better for a Grey Knights Redeemer and Inferno Cannon for normal redeemer. Make the Redeemer an actually viable choice against the Crusader.

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Souba on Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:38 pm

Corennus wrote:The problem with the redeemer is how on earth do you get the most out of those flamestorm cannons? Personally I think Heavy Incinerators would be so much better for a Grey Knights Redeemer and Inferno Cannon for normal redeemer. Make the Redeemer an actually viable choice against the Crusader.
the landraider redeemer and crusader are (for me) mainly transports. moving and firing the multimelta & assaultcannon (1 normal, 1 machine spirit if moved 6". otherwise one of those with machine spirit and the rest snapfires). while the LRC got the bonus of having the most use of psybolt ammunition with his hurricane bolters and his assault cannon, i think his damage potential firing with snap shots is mediocre.

well now you can say. the LRR cannot fire his flamestorm cannons at all. and you are right about that.

for me to let the LRR do his work he has to be acompanied by the right list in order to make best use of his weapons. as i said, i play mainly 3 landraiders of all variants and most of the time i play a spearhead formation with the LRR in the middle. as i advance the enemy, i fire the assaultcannon/multimelta. when i am within flamestorm reach i use the LRC and the godhammer to bring enemy units within position to make the best use of my flamestorm cannons. worked well for me so far.

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Sai on Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:00 pm

I think that sometimes people get blinded by the assault vehicle idea and feel that if they're not using a landraider as a line breaker they're wasting it's potential. The standard landraider brings anti-tank capability to a primarily anti-infantry force which has to be a good thing. It might not make back it's own points, but if it kills something my infantry would have trouble with, I'm happy.

The best use I've found for it is parking on a midfield objective, providing defilade cover to a terminator squad. If the enemy want to get in meltagun range they're going to have to face the terminators first

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Alladin the Paladin on Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:28 pm

It would be interesting to see a LR heavy list, such as 3 or 4 in 1500 or 2000 pts... I doubt it'd be competitive across the board (since people have already stated it can be against certain armies), but that much AV14 could be fun to play...

I just don't know what else you'd fill the rest of the points with, esp in a 1500 pt game where half of it is going into the LRs

Edit: to flesh out the post... Serves me right for posting at work... Also realize we can't take 4 since no dedicated transport option? Could be wrong never actually looked into it Shocked 

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by first strike on Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:48 pm

You can get 4, allies. Normaly for me the landraiders will be 2 god hammers and one crusader with melta and psi bolts, bolter if I have the spare points. If you go coteaz, then you can get a storm raven in there as well.

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Corennus on Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:55 am

land raider heavy GK styly:

Coteaz
100

ELITES

Purifier Squad (7 man)
Psycannon
Incinerator
178

Purifier Squad (7 man)
Psycannons x 1
Incinerator
178

TROOPS

Inquisitor Squad (8 man)
Banisher
Crusader x 4
Deathcult Assassins x 3
120

Inquisitor Squad (8 man)
Banisher
Crusader x 4
Deathcult Assassins x 3
120

Inquisitor Squad (8 man)
Banisher
Crusader x 4
Deathcult Assassins x 3
120

FAST ATTACK

Stormraven
T-L Multi-Melta
T-L Plasma Cannon
205

Stormraven
T-L Multi-Melta
T-L Plasma Cannon
205

HEAVY SUPPORT

Land Raider Godhammer
255

Land Raider Godhammer
255

Land Raider Godhammer
255

1991

3 Land Raiders that can take out enemy vehicles normally before they can be taken out themselves. Have chosen Godhammers cause of this ability above the Crusader/Redeemer.

3 Inquisitor squads which gain Fearless and daemons have to reroll inv saves due to Banisher...

Purifier squads sweep in with the stormravens and use psycannons against rear armour or infantry.


it's not the most brilliant list I realise but it is land raider heavy

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Pyroa7xhavik on Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:55 pm

I just ran 2 god hammers with 2 sets a Purifers and one SR with Crowe for 1500 it was a fun game we rolled kill points Very Happy

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Pyroa7xhavik on Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:56 pm

Ill usually use the Crusaider with assassins and crusaders and add a tech with some grenades it's all sorts of fun

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Alladin the Paladin on Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:50 am

Haha that is a pretty funny list... Probably catch a few people off-guard for sure!

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Corennus on Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:48 am

it might indeed. just watch them trying to work out if they can take out 3 land raiders AND 2 stormravens before they're in CC range lol

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Rion on Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:33 pm

Not gonna go back and read all this but my opinion is:

It's not dead just not as useful as it used to be.

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Pyriel on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:48 pm

Far from.
The landraider is currently the best choice for GK armies.
The only LR useful is the normal lascannon type, the other ones are utter waste of points.

Dreadnoughts are dead with the new tau and eldar cheese crap in their codexes.
Strike squads and landraiders backed by a smaller melee section with one or no dreadknights in the mix is the most powerful GK setup today.


I am also talking about pure GK and not watered down by henchmen.
Also the only version of the dreadknight useful in todays meta is a shunting one armed with a hammer and if points permit, a heavy incinerator. The previously poor hammer is currently worth its points in gold.

What is completely dead are all and any forms of rhinos, razorbacks and dreadnoughts so the old rhino spam of purifyers is dead as it henchmen spam in transports.

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Sai on Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:37 am

A dreadnought can be fairly handy- I stand mine unobtrusively in a corner of the board behind LoS blocking terrain and pop out to snipe at transport vehicles. I'm also considering fitting one out for assault. As far as I can tell, there is no rule to stop the dreadnought assaulting from the back of a stormraven. A dreadnought alone in close-combat isn't going to fair well, but charging with a squad of infantry helps both units: it gives them some useful high strength attacks and limits the number of krak grenades it takes to the chest.

The days of psyrifleman spam are dead, but that's good because it was both unimaginative and un-characterful.
I don't see land raiders being used to create a mechanised force, but they certainly help anchor a line, and even when wrecked they provide substantial cover. Actually, walking a dreadnought behind a raider would probably be a way to increase the walker's lifespan; it can add it's fire to the raider's while staying out of sight of AT guns.

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Pyriel on Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:58 am

Not really. wave serpents dont care for your puny 48 range nor do they care for your cover saves. The dread is dead.

As for assaulting with dreadnoughts, the dart throwing apes at gw design team made perfectly sure that all walkers are useless in todays meta melee since the game is crawling with monstrous creatures like tau and eldar semi titans and now with the new tyranids on the horizon and their much points reduced carnifex the perfect place for SM dreadnoughts will be collecting dust on a shelf.

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Pyriel on Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:01 am

As for the landraider it is the one and only thing left in the SM arsenal that is very little affected by what the tau have in their armies as well as impervious to the usual eldar serpent spam plus it can shoot at two vehicles with its lascannons as well as hide LOS to the one and only power unit the SM have, the techmarine cannon.

And no, any other transport version of the LR will not do since you are dead if you try to close distance with a xenos army, the fusion suits and semi titans and blasters will kill you if you short distance with them.

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Re: The Humble Land Raider.....is it dead?

Post by Sai on Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:17 am

I suppose that once you get to certain saturation of serpents you can't block LoS unless the terrain works in your favour. Or you take a Bastion.

SM dreadnoughts are certainly going to get crumped by almost any monstrous creature, but a GK dreadnought has a chance. It will probably die, especially against I4+ monsters, but against riptides and carnifexes the dreadnought only has to take one wound and pass a leadership test. It's not guaranteed by any means, but if it has a one in three chance of killing the MC outright I think most players would keep their distance, especially if it's backed up by a squad of infantry with a couple of nemesis hammers. An assault dreadnought will go down easily to firepower though, a storm raven is definitely needed as a delivery system. Once everything is added together the force would probably be more expensive than it's worth, but it might be an interesting force to try out. I've got a spare 120-130 points in my 3000 point apocalypse army so I think I'm going to throw one together with a single and twin-linked incinerator.

I haven't got any landraiders in my 3000 points, but I do have a shadowsword which will serve for killing most vehicles. Otherwise, the entire force can deep strike from turn one so walking across the field won't be an issue.

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