UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

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UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by Embolden40k on Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:49 am

Hey everyone,

My army is pretty much set now and painting is about to commence, so I thought I would keep a track of my preperations and the lessons learnt from my practice games, so I thought why not stick in on the GK forum, so that everyone can learn from my mistakes (or not as the case maybe!).

After posting up my uncompleted list Here I had my first practice games with the list against my mate Vince and a regular to the gaming club I attend Dan.

Vince would be taking Guard:

Vince was taking: Company Command (no upgrades), Platoon Command (lascannon), 5 Infantry Platoons all with Lascannons, 3 Plasma Veteran squads in Chimera (3x Plasma in each), 2 Vendettas, Hellhound, Griffon, Manticore, Executioner (Plasma sponsons) and an Aegis (1850pts)

I took: OMI Terminator Armour, Psycannon, Hammer, Lvl1 Psyker, Servo skull, a second OMI (no skull), 10 Strikes, 2 Psycannons, 10 Strikes 2 Psycannons, 10 Terminators 2 Psycannons (6 Halberds, 4 Hammers), Storm Raven, 2 Dreads with Autocannons and Psybolt ammo, Dreadknight Heavy Incinerator.

And the game went a little like this:

We were playing crusade (3 objectives), Dawn of War Deployment:

Warlord Traits: Guard: nightfight or not (no nightfight choosen)
GK: Outflanking units have acute sense (yay!)

Psychic powers:
Warlord OMI: Ignore Cover
OMI: Prescience

I placed a Servo skull fairly central, but weight towards the right flank

Vince won the roll for board sides after placing objectives (1 top left, 1 dead centre and 1 bottom right) and chose a side with a large ruined hill in a corner to hide the Manticore and Griffon.

I won the roll for first turn and took it with both hands!

Deployment:
Winning first turn was big, so I decided to combat squad even though there were limited objectives, I was hoping to get first blood and then I would have the big advantage in the latter stages on the game with target saturation.

I deployed with 5 Terminators (2 Psycannons, 2 Hammer, 3 Halberds) and both OMI on the left flank, with a Dreadnought and 5 Strikes in a Razorback (Justicar), in the centre I deployed the Dreadnought in a ruin, 5 Strikes (2 Psycannons) deployed on the 2nd and 3rd floor and a Razorback with 5 Strikes (Justicar), I would be deep striking the Dreadknight and 5 Strikes (2 Psycannons) and the other 5 Terminators went in the Storm Raven.

Vince deployed the blob behind the Aegis on the left flank, with the Manticore and Griffon on/behind the ruined hill, the Company Command deployed in the Aegis as well as the Platoon Command, with the 3 Chimeras on the right flank, the hellhound after much deliberation went on the left flank.

Turn1
GK
After casting up Prescience and ignore cover I moved the Terminators and to my surprise and glee the Company Command were in range! 1 Razorback immobilised itself in terrain, which was a problem as I needed it to block LOS the Terminators from the Executioner... the other Razorback moved forwards to act as a distraction, the Strikes in the centre held tight. Shooting and the Terminators removed the Company Command squad for Firstblood and Warlord, the Dread on the left stunned the Griffon, the Dread on the right immobilised a Chimera containing Veterans.

Guard
The Hellhound moved down the left flank, the Chimeras moved down the right flank, shooting, the Platoon Command issued first rank, second rank and the blob shot into the Terminators killing 2 (4 lascannons missed), the Executioner pivoted and opened up into the Terminators and killed one OMI (not the Warlord) and the rest of the Terminators, the Manticore hit the Dread on the left flank with 1 shot, but it saved cover* (*area terrain on the ground/under a ruined ledge - should this of granted cover??? answer on a post card please!), the Chimeras then all opened up on the Razorback in the centre and exploded it killing 2 Strikes inside! luckily they were out of range of plasma.

Turn2
GK
All 3 reserves arrive, the Storm Raven moved up to tackle the Executioner, the Dreadknight lands next to the blob and the 5 Strikes deep strike 11" off the table (10" would of been fine...) so go back into reserve, the Strikes disembark from the immobilised Razorback and the Warlord OMI joins them after casting Prescience. Shooting, the Dreadknight toasts about 8 Guardsman and 3 of the Platoon Command, the Storm Ravens multimelta pens the Executioner and it blows up! the Dread on the left does no damage against the Griffon, the guys in the ruined Razorback took a hull point off the lead Chimera and the Dreadnought glances in again.

Guard
1 Vendetta arrives from reserve and goes after the Storm Raven, the Chimeras on the right continue to push from my objective, on the right flank, the Vendetta opens up into the Storm Raven and doesn't do any damage after I jink save the 1 pen hit, the Hellhound which pushed deeper into my deployment zone flamers the Strikes on the left flank, killing 3, the Manticore explodes the Dread on the left, the Griffon scatters waay off the strikes on the left flank, the in middle the Plasma and Multilasers kill 1 Strikes 3 go to ground. The blob then fluff when shooting the Dreadknight, the Platoon Commands lascannon, does take a wound off.

Turn3
GK
The Strikes in deep strike stay in reserve (grrr I need to stop the Guards mech advance on the right flank), the Dreadknight moves towards the right flank, the Storm Raven drops in hover and terminators jump over the Aegis and into the blob (about 1" away), the Dread in the centre tries to lineup a side shot on the lead Chimera, the Strikes in the central ruin move down a level (some no on the ground floor) as the Chimeras are staying out of range to the Psycannons. Shooting, the Dreadknight runs towards the Chimeras, the Storm Raven snap shooting gets a glance on the side armour of the lead Chimera taking it's last hull point, the Dread then opens up into the other Chimera and gets an explosion, which kills 6 guys inside and 5 guys from the other squad!! (that was massive for me), the 2 Strikes and the Strike squad combine fire to kill the remaining guys from the lead Vet squad, on the left flank sees the OMI trying to take on the Hellhound getting a glance. Assaults and the Terminators charge the Blob, causing 7 wounds, losing 1 guy to overwatch and the blob with no commissar fail moral and run off the table!

Guard
the second vendetta arrives, and lines up the Storm raven the other drops into hover mode and does the same, the Veterans from the immobilised Chimera jump out behind and out of LOS to my army bar the Dreadknight. it takes both Vendettas to destroy the Storm Raven. The Dreadknight is then gunned down by plasma (in rapid fire range), the Manticore scatters waaaay off from the second Dread and the Griffon and Hellhound both fail to do any damage against he Strikes and OMI on the left flank.

Turn4
The Strikes arrive and land on my objective bottom right the Strikes in the centre move up towards the objective on the centre, the Dreadnought moves to get LOS to the hovering Vendetta, the OMI and Strikes move and run towards the objective in the centre, while the Terminators move up the ruined hill and prepare to charge the Griffon. Shooting, the Dread does nothing against the Vendetta... the Strikes all fire into the remaining Veterans they can see and clear them away, the Terminators fire into the side armour of the Griffon and glance it to death! (lol), leaving onto 2 scoring units left!

Guard
the vendettas swap, the one hovering last turn goes into zoom mode and flies to get LOS to the OMI and strikes, the Hellhound moves up and prepare to BBQ them again, the Manticore tank shocks the Terminators who fail moral and hall back 10"!! the other Vendetta moves in hover mode over the Veterans and they embark, the Lascannon from the platoon command shoots into the Strikes in cover and kills 1, leaving 1 left. the immobilised Chimera then fires into him and kills him off. The Vendetta and Hellhound on my left kill off the Strikes leaving the OMI.

Turn5
GK
Potentially the last turn...

The Dreadnought and Strikes all move to get forward to make it as dangerous as possible to deep strike onto objectives, the Strikes and Dreadnought are in range of the Hovering Vendetta, but it will have cover from a ruin, the Terminators regroup move and run back into the objective on the left flank. Shooting see the Strikes and Dreadnought shoot at the Vendetta which is well protected as no damage is done. Oh and the OMI shoots then charges the Hellhound destroying it.

Guard
The Vendetta on the left drops into hover mode and kills the OMI, the other Vendetta makes a daring zoom across the table and drops the Veterans out who scatter away from the objective (phew!) and land in the open (even better!), the Vendetta still has LOS to the Strikes on my right objective and the Veterans, both then shoot and kill 2, who have gone to ground. The manticore tank shocks the Terminators again, who pass moral this time and remain on the objective.

We roll and the gone goes another turn!

Turn6
The Strikes and Dread both turn to target the veterans and kill them off, the Strikes that have gone to ground then shoot the Vendetta out the sky, the Terminators charge the Manticore and explode it (taking no damage) and Vince calls in a day with only the Vendetta, Immobilised Chimera and the Lascannon from the platoon command remaining.

Aftermath:

Well that was bloody, but I capitalised on 2 major mistakes by Vince, deploying the Command squad so far forward (he said he forgot I had rolled ignore cover, but it was still deployed to advanced) and not taking a Commissar in the blob was huge and made them an easy target for the Terminators in the Storm Raven.

Overall I was happy with the Terminators, the fire power they can throw out is sickening!

So what did I learn:

1) This army list has legs!

2) 2 OMIs are here to stay, having the option to roll for both on the divination powers gives lots of tactical flexibility!

3) Dozerblades are very tempting on the Razorbacks, after the one that was supposed to cover the Terminators from the executioner immobilised it's self on terrain before it had moved! Even at the expense of the Psybolt on the Heavy Bolters (which did nothing anyway) as the Heavy Bolters are there for support only, while the Hull is more important to block LOS.

4) I didn't miss Psybolt Ammo as much as I thought I would on the Strikes, but more play testing is needed.

Much more to come...

Dark Eldar next! With lots of Anti-infantry shooting this should be a good test for the list!




Last edited by Embolden40k on Fri May 03, 2013 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by DOMIN4TRIX on Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:53 am

Great report - the list is solid, you have a good mix of tools to get the job done.

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by Rivan on Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:48 am

Great report and great read.

One thing...when you combat squad a unit, you can't deploy 1 squad while putting the other squad in reserve. Either you deploy the whole unit at the start of the game and choose to combat squad them; or you put the whole unit in reserve and when they come in, you can combat squad them at that point.

So deploying 1 strike squad and DSing the other squad is not allowed. Same thing w/ the termies. Putting the 5 in the SR is technically putting them in reserve since the SR has to come in from reserve.

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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by DonFer on Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:03 pm

By reading the rules, yes he can Borther.

At the begining of the game he chooses to CS the unit. Then he choses to keep both CSed units in reserve, one CS Unit will arrive from normal reserves and the other by DS.

This however has to be done at the begining of the game, before army deployement.


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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by Embolden40k on Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:49 pm

DOMIN4TRIX wrote:Great report - the list is solid, you have a good mix of tools to get the job done.

Thanks for the nod of approval, but we'll see how well the list stands up, with me behind it! :p


by Rivan on Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:48 pm
Great report and great read.

One thing...when you combat squad a unit, you can't deploy 1 squad while putting the other squad in reserve. Either you deploy the whole unit at the start of the game and choose to combat squad them; or you put the whole unit in reserve and when they come in, you can combat squad them at that point.

So deploying 1 strike squad and DSing the other squad is not allowed. Same thing w/ the termies. Putting the 5 in the SR is technically putting them in reserve since the SR has to come in from reserve.

Are you sure mate?? I was under the impression and without my rulebook/codex to hand it's hard to prove :p, that at deployment you choose whether a unit is combat squading or not, if not, the unit acts as one, if yes, the unit then acts totally different units for the whole game, counts as 2 for reserve totals (if both in reserve), half can embark on a Vehicle and half not etc etc. But I could be wrong! (I usually am)

by DonFer on Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:03 pm
By reading the rules, yes he can Borther.

At the begining of the game he chooses to CS the unit. Then he choses to keep both CSed units in reserve, one CS Unit will arrive from normal reserves and the other by DS.

This however has to be done at the begining of the game, before army deployement.

Thats how I've been playing it.

But does anyone else want to chime in on this as well!? It'd be great to get some page references etc etc. Very Happy

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by Vecuu on Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:00 pm

The choice to Combat Squad a unit is done when they are deployed. As such, they will be either combat squadded when they are deployed during regular deployment, or when they arrive from reserves.

From the FAQ:
You must decide which units are splitting into combat squads,
and which models go into each combat squad, immediately
before deployment

And on page 124 regarding reserves:
When reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it.

So, based on these facts, a unit in reserves is not deployed until it arrives, which is when you decide to combat squad.

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by Rivan on Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:15 pm

Vecuu wrote:The choice to Combat Squad a unit is done when they are deployed. As such, they will be either combat squadded when they are deployed during regular deployment, or when they arrive from reserves.

From the FAQ:
You must decide which units are splitting into combat squads,
and which models go into each combat squad, immediately
before deployment

And on page 124 regarding reserves:
When reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it.

So, based on these facts, a unit in reserves is not deployed until it arrives, which is when you decide to combat squad.

+1

This is also exactly what GW and TO's tell me. That's why I've never been able to take a 10 man termie squad and deploy 5 on the table while putting 5 in a SR Sad

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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by DonFer on Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:58 pm

Vecuu wrote:The choice to Combat Squad a unit is done when they are deployed. As such, they will be either combat squadded when they are deployed during regular deployment, or when they arrive from reserves.

The Choice to combat squad is made before deployment (army deployment, not unit deployment). Yes, a unit that comes from reserve is deployed onto the battlefield. But CS is done before army deployment (GW uses the same word for both).

Now as I said before. If you do this at the begining of the game before your army is deployed, you can do whatever your heart desires with those units. Put them in a SR, DS, reserve. You cannot do that during the game, hence you cannot CS a termie unit on your second turn, by puting one unit on a reserved flier and the other entering the table by normal deployment.


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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by Rivan on Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:02 pm

@Donfer: so you're saying if I make the decision to CS my termie squad before the game starts, I can deploy 5 on the table and keep the other 5 in reserve (like embarked in the SR)?

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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by DonFer on Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:11 pm

Sure. You have to do it this way in order to use vehicles that are not Dedicated Transports (GK/BA Stormraven, LR, etc.)

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by Vecuu on Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:44 pm

DonFer wrote:
Vecuu wrote:The choice to Combat Squad a unit is done when they are deployed. As such, they will be either combat squadded when they are deployed during regular deployment, or when they arrive from reserves.

The Choice to combat squad is made before deployment (army deployment, not unit deployment). Yes, a unit that comes from reserve is deployed onto the battlefield. But CS is done before army deployment (GW uses the same word for both).

Now as I said before. If you do this at the begining of the game before your army is deployed, you can do whatever your heart desires with those units. Put them in a SR, DS, reserve. You cannot do that during the game, hence you cannot CS a termie unit on your second turn, by puting one unit on a reserved flier and the other entering the table by normal deployment.


You're pretending that there is some clarity that doesn't exist. The rule for Combat Squad says to do it before deployment. Not Army deployment. Not unit deployment. Deployment. From what I understand, an overwhelming percentage of players go with the interpretation that leans towards unit deployment, since the Combat Squad rules never mentions your overarching Army Deployment, but the Reserve roles specifically mentions the deployment of the oncoming unit.

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by DonFer on Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:35 pm

There's actually a lot of clarity Brother. Page 121 BRB. There you can find what Deployment actually is. In there the deployment is only considered when you deploy forces at the begining of the game, that is deploy armies.


Last edited by DonFer on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:32 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by Vecuu on Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:13 pm

A unit split into combat squads therefore
is now two separate units for all game purposes including
calculating the total number of units in the army, and the
number of units you can place in reserve


And this is the line that convinced me. Can't do that unless you CS prior to army deployment.

Looks like I was arguing 5th ed rules. Embarassed

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by Rivan on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:12 am

Looks like I was also living in 5th Ed Razz

Thanks Brother Donfer and Vecuu!!!

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by DonFer on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:23 am

Anytime, together we can always clarify those cloudy rules Very Happy

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by jay170788 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:43 am

Except that pesky rending flame rule... Evil or Very Mad

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by DonFer on Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:45 am

Still not conviced that there is no rending flame, Brother?

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by jay170788 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:48 am

RAW i know you can rend flame but from a "Master Swordsmen" not a "Master Pyrotechnic" it makes no sense for my feeble Human mind.

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by DonFer on Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:50 am

Mmm. No RAW or RAI interpretations here. With Cleansing Flame you don't roll to wound. You roll a die for each model and wound on a 4+. The rending rule requires specifically to roll to wound. Ergo. No rending flame.

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by jay170788 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:14 am

DonFer wrote:You roll a die for each model and wound on a 4+.

And this isn't considered a roll to wound. You roll a D6 and on a 4+ he wounds, therefore rolling to see if there is a wound. Ergo roll to wound. Just a different roll to wound than wound normally occur ie. S vs. T. How is the rending roll to wound any different to a snipers roll to wound or a poisoned weapons roll to wound?

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by Tiberius on Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:16 am

jay170788 wrote:
DonFer wrote:You roll a die for each model and wound on a 4+.

And this isn't considered a roll to wound. You roll a D6 and on a 4+ he wounds, therefore rolling to see if there is a wound. Ergo roll to wound. Just a different roll to wound than wound normally occur ie. S vs. T. How is the rending roll to wound any different to a snipers roll to wound or a poisoned weapons roll to wound?

Sadly, this doesn't apply. The Posioned rule only mentions wounding on a fixed number unless a lower result would be required, thus it only modifies the To Wound roll.

Snipers specifically mentions always wounding on To Wound rolls of 4+, with To Wound having capital letters to specify it as a certain kind of roll. Cleanisng flame is instead a "roll to see if a wound is inflicted on a certain number" which, while having exactly the same as a To Wound roll which wounds on a specific number, isn't a To Wound roll. Rending only applies to wound rolls specified as To Wound rolls or rolls to wound (the capital letters are not required, but the exact wording is for it to be RAW).

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by DonFer on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:11 am

+1. Another example of this is Dangerous Terrain Test. You roll a D6, on a 1 you get one wound. Which is not the same as rolling To Wound for a Dangerous Terrain Test.

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by jb317 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:17 am

I think a way to differentiate universally might be that "To Wound" rolls are made specifically in reference to the To Wound chart whilst other rolls that may or may not end up with a wound being allocated do not relate to the To Wound chart.

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by jay170788 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:55 am

jb317 wrote:I think a way to differentiate universally might be that "To Wound" rolls are made specifically in reference to the To Wound chart whilst other rolls that may or may not end up with a wound being allocated do not relate to the To Wound chart.

but snipers and poisoned weapons do not refer to the To Wound chart but still count as To Wound rolls. If only it was that clear :-(

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

Post by DonFer on Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:35 am

It is very clear, since Snipers still need a fixed number on the To Wound roll to cause a wound: "... they'll always wound on a To Wound roll of 4+, regardless of the target's toughness".

They don't specifically refer to the To Wound Chart (they more like bypass it) but they specifically mention the To Wound roll.

In Celansing Flame it specifically states: "...all enemy models [..] suffer one wound on a roll of 4+" Which indicates that you don't roll to wound, you roll a D6 and get a wound on a 4+ (which is completely different as rolling to wound).

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Re: UK Tournament Tactica Diary - Now using a Draigowing

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