Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

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Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:02 am

Hello brothers, I've been thinking for a couple of days now about bringing this up.

Now, Warhammer 40k 6th edition competitive play and meta. What is it?

Competitive 6th edition is shooting. And that's 40k in general. That's the strongest part of the game, besides deployment And movement. Shooting is where most of the damage is done. The close-combat phase now is just a joke (charging 2" in open terrain... DAFUQ?!?). 6th edition just screams "SHOOT ME!" And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

Now the most effective shooting right now is...... *drum roll* plasma and rapid fire. They changed the rapid fire rules and its really buffed them up. Medium strength shots meaning; str6 str7 and str8 are the most effective shooting in the game. That means with all those strengths your wounding MEQ troops on 2's. (and that's the best since you can't wound on 1's) small arms fire is still great, but that involves torrents of fire and is effective at stacking the odds. Roll enough dice and a terminator is bound to fail a 2+ save.)

The meta for 6th edition, which includes the move to more infantry and bodies on the table to really outlast your opponent. And the move to more medium strength shots and less high strength low ap single shot weapons. With the change to vehicles and hull points, it's much easier to wreck vehicles through glancing them to death. Hence the medium strength weaponry can now handle vehicles.

So to summarise so far:

6th edition meta: stronger shooting > more bodies on the table > which equal more shooting. (Endless cycle) each are striving to out do the other.
More bodies also = less vehicles > less vehicles means less need for melta and las. (High str, low ap)
Less vehicles = more infantry. See?

So that's the meta. Now once you've understood this you can see why terminators are taken at lot less and sometime not at all in most competitive lists. The move to rapid firing plasma means a lot more ap2 shots! And... As I said earlier, what is 6th edition main aspect? That's right, you guessed it! Shooting. So terminators, being so expansive and less in number, cannot deliver enough firepower on the board.

Which is why in my lists you won't see terminators. As I've explained Very Happy especially grey knights, we can get double the amount of str5 storm bolter shots on PAGK then GKT's. See where I'm leading this. More bodies > more fire power.

Now there's also flyers. And they are changing the game as we progress deeper into 6th edition but for this post I'll leave flyers out of this.

But understanding the meta, we can counter it. Many of you might have seen this?

We counter it by having more troops then the enemy can shoot. And that's the vivacious cycle. Or, you can do what I do and that's add mech (vehicles) Now with few high str low ap weapons the landraider for example really comes into play here at higher point games. AV14 is a tough nut to crack. Sure it can be glanced to death by str8 but what this is doing is taking the heat off my precious infantry (scoring units) rhino's and razorbacks are just as important in my opinion then ever. What they do is protect your scoring units from fire for a few turns. And that is very important. And the razorback especially can be kitted out for anti-infantry. It makes mech very important in the meta of of the game.

That's all I can think about now... It's late and I think I've rambled on for to long and forgot the rest of my points. So anyway, just some insight for you all to think about.

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by first strike on Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:51 pm

I can agree with you on some points, but this is just a difference in the way people approch the game.
Shooting is king in this 6th, but hand to hand is not dead. You will see just as many 2" charges as you will 12" charges, so what realy happened is that the average charge range (when not going through cover) is 5 to 8", it used to be 6". I will always keep a hand to hand unit in my army (as they are greykinghts, they will be shootie as well).
Vechiles can be killed by glancing them to death, but if you are not bringing an Ap1 or 2 weapon then a pen will only kill on a roll of a 6 and a 1 to 3 will do nothing to most vechiles (greyknights for eg.) that is half the damage results gone, Ap1 and 2 just means more damage. Cove is also more available in 6th as now it is only 25% and not 50%.
Termiators are still a useable unit, in my last game I had Draigo, Coteaz and 5 Palidans run over 50 sisters of battle, The Saint, and Uriar Jokobas (not sure of the spelling) and only lose 2 of their number. All the damage was done in hand to hand, my shooting was used to take out his vechiles. So what I am seeing is people are either going lots of vechiles or none, just one or 2 will not cut it.
Landraiders will be a problem for some armies and be easy for others but I have always tried to take at least 2 options for takeing out armour 14 in any list I take (I do not see rending psycannos as one of these as the odds are to high, but they can do it) so it is melta or vindie assassian.
Allies have not realy changed the meta, it has just given people some realy powerfull builds that were not available before Eg an IG blob squad with ruin priest, resist 50% of all spells, have We Shall Know No Fear, Get Back Into The Fight and an Agis Line.
Fortifications. Same as Allies, some will use them and others will not.
Flyers, these have changed what is happening to some degree but not huge as well, most flyers do not bring a large amount of fire to the board so can be ignored if you have to. As grey knights we have basic choices that we would be takeing anyway that can deal with them.
As a Grey Knight, is a pure list going to be competive any more, well I would have to say no, others get allies to fill the gaps in their army, we get inquisitors. You will win games without them, but there will be some you just cannot win, dont tie one hand behind your back when your opp is not doing the same.
As always takenig a well rounded army will get you further then trying to block every thing out there, and good target selection and timeing.

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Rivan on Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:48 pm

Great post Arratak--I think you summed it all very well.

The good thing with GKs (like First Strike) mentioned, our shooty units are also decent in close combat Smile

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:17 pm

Yeah I agree with what your saying first strike. In competitive play people take allies. Coteaz opens that up for us. Otherwise we have no battle brothers. Allies is something that I was going to write up tonight. As well as flyers.

Edit: thanks rivan Very Happy

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Guest on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:33 pm

Ok now that I've had some to gather my thoughts, I should touch on the strengths of guns briefly before I get into a different subject. The shift in meta, and we should know what the meta is from reading my first post. (More bodies & medium strength guns). Now why has this shifted you ask? Becuase of games workshop introducing; hull points! No longer is penatrating a vehicle the most important. They can be glanced to death. And now that that can be done, why do we need to take those expansive las cannons (heavy1) and multi melta's (getting up close). Now we can move around, not risk getting to close and glance vehicles to death with medium str weapons. (Str 6, 7 & Cool. This by no means make vehicles crap. You're a tool if you assume this. Vehicles add a layer of protection for our troops that enemy so desperately wants to shoot. (No troops = can't score) they also add speed, with the changes to movement and shooting phase) there are some great tactics that ill explain some other time. But tougher vehicles, like the expansive landraider and that pyramid thing from necrons which name escapes me. But things with av14 and av13 really have a place now to really add something to the game.

So I hope that clears up a few things. I'm gonna talk about flyers and allies.

Flyers: flyers have really added some flavour and some new cool tricks with their introduction to 6th edition. They add some tactical advantages and some psychological threat to you opponent.

Their movement can be tricky to get right, depending on your terrain and other variants getting the most out of your flyer can be tricky. Especially when your opponents knows how they work.

Most people think flyers are o/p and broken. *cough* bale flamer *cough* *cough* but ill get to the hell drake later. Flyers them selves are slightly more expansive then your mobile weapons platforms from your armies mech division. Eg: ultramarine razorback and the ultramarine storm-talon. Both realistically share the same roles. Just do it differently. Both are mobile weapons platforms, the storm talon is more manoeuvrable and more expansive and a little tougher to hurt.

But by no means can they tilt the game to your advantage that much. Twin linked weapons, abilities that ignore cover saves like the power from divination Very Happy and other stuff like that. Interceptor, Sky-fire and things like that, really make flyers manageable.

However, the hell drake, av12 with a 5+ invulnerable save (not cover save) and a 360* angle for the bale flamer; str 6 ap3 torrent flame template that ignores cover. Needing 6's to hit the thing. That's pretty rough. Not to mention vector strike on rear armour at str 7 against other vehicles. Now when you enemy has 3 of these, they are killing 25-35 marines per turn on average. That's pretty nasty considering I only have 30meq in my 1850 point list. And that's not even a hard list. 3/5 for comp score.

But, most armies at 1850 will have at least 40 MEQ's and some GEQ's as well. That's tough!
Anyway, it's not unbeatable, just scary.

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Pyriel on Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:04 pm

GKs in competitive against-all 6:ed gaming (not crazy competitive as in weird allies though but non allied tournament competitive):

To start quickly (will add more later on as I get time over)...


Terminators are gone, forget terminators.
Even with the buffs of 2+ armour vs some cc weapons you will face more plasma and a whole new army themed around plasma out there.
Basically you pay the same points vs strike squads for half the bodies and those bodies die just as fast (points to points) to regular shooting as strike squads do.

Vs plasma and other AP2 shooting terminators get a 5++ save yes but it is pretty hard not to get a 5+ cover save for your PAGKs in 6:ed with the new los and terrain rules.

Only against AP3 weapons do the terminators shine but this is balanced against them being fewer and thus half as good as board control and objective coverage.

Point vs point strike squads shoot twice as hard then terminators do and 6:ed is a shooting centric game.

The only thing that can sway the use towards terminators is how the chaos hellchicken meta will evolve. Terminators are immune to those while PAGKs will throw in the towel but to counter that is also the question of how the obliterator and dark angel meta will develope. Who knows, maybe we will be forced to start using terminators simply because the meta will make them less crappy then PAGKs.


NDKs are also dead (in a very competitive setting).
They compete with psyfleman dreadnoughts and there is simply no comparison between those two when it comes to competitiveness.
Same reason that purgator squads are never used in competitive gaming...which sucks since I always wanted my GKs to be built around purgators.

The only time a purgator squad can be considered is in very specific builds with lots of mobility like stormravens where a dirt cheap 100p squad of 5 purgators with 4 incinerators can actually earn back their points pretty reasonably.


More later.

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by jb317 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:05 am

Is there any way to make GK termies even semi-competitive?

I know plasma will strip hull points like paint off almost any vehicle, but would loading, say, 10 termies into an LRC make them more viable? Or any other method of getting them into assault (or solid cover) a.s.a.p?

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Pyriel on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:50 am

Making termies useful is pretty much what the librarians shrouding can start doing but it also depends on terrain.

I also dont believe in crusader LR since it has short range and costs tons.
It is a reactive and super expensive transport that earns back points by delivering melee units into contact with the enemy.
Thus it takes several turns for it to even start hitting things in shooting (if the enemy wants to stay away from a 24 ranged bolter shooting thing then it is not to hard for him to do so).
For landraiders the standard lascannon version is the only way to go, this thing can actually kill enemy elites and armour from the very first turn and it also stands roughly a 66% chance of hitting a flier with one of its lascannons at good range.


Terminators must come in groups of 10 or not at all. The reason for this is psybolt ammo. It is worth taking for 10 models that can then be combat squadded into two 5 man squads. S5 stormbolters are basically our only advantages for our terminators that are better then others at meleeing AP3,4,5,6 targets AND monstrous creatures but suck at meleeing other AP2 things like terminators.

AP2 is actually a second weakness of the GKs right next to long range and armour.

It also depends on the upcoming meta with more and more bale flamers flying around completely owning everything non AP2, it might be worth taking some terminators in an army, not because they are any good but because they give you a chance against bale flamers unless you want to go full ridicule yourself and mix in vendettas or croissants into a GK army.


I love terminators myself, I use 10 with a stave, banner and psybolt ammo but these guys need their shrouding and cannot compete with other melee terminators but can on their own roll in a whole flank of softer targets and with summoning the remains will always find their way into the objectives later on.

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by jb317 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:08 am

Thank you kindly Brother Pyriel. I just bought another 2 boxes of GKT's and was desperately trying to justify my purchase haha!

Thank you also for the info regarding the LR. What would you say is the best method (Be it Summoning, LR, SR, DS, etc) of delivering terminators to where they need to be?

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Pyriel on Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:25 am

I stay away from vehicles since vehicles are easy to kill unless you spam them so it is either none or a lot and our things simply cost to much so a lot of vehicles equals to few terminators.

This leaves foot slogging and in order to get to the right place fast the GK army offers a lot of possibilities. Deepstriking is my favorite, either just doing it or using things like beacons on stormravens but beware, a deepstriking setup needs also to be all or nothing and with the moronic reserve rules this is hard to pull of and pretty much demands a librarian and/or careful summoning since summoning can act as an additional deepstrike.

I am probably going to toy around with a stromraven or two with a beacon librarian and cheap inq with melee retinue and a mystic so that I can not only deepstrike accurately close to wherever the flier/inq or libby is but also summon things from hidden deployment at the far back with no scatter risk.

But as for standard I deepstrike things in as favorable spots as I can. Use summoning only when you are forced to since it is risky but the power is extremely useful in late game when risk taking often means you get a win from a certain draw or defeat and remember, the odds of a bad scatter are lower then a good scatter so when taking chances is called for you have little to loose and lots to gain.

Strangely enough orks are pretty much an auto loss vs GKs but when using stormravens orks, especially cheesy ork builds become almost unstoppable.


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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Souba on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:57 am

pyriel summed it up pretty nicely.
some things that really are awesome on our strike squads is that they can deepstrike aswell (and are cheaper than terminators) couple that with psychic communion & homers/servo skulls and you can nicely place your scoring units on the board.

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Rivan on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:19 am

+1 w/ Pyriel's summary.

I love terminators as well and that's why I always run 10 man squads--to make psybolts worth it. Sure, they are susceptible to plasma but unless I'm up against a lot of 36" plasma blasts, I can shoot back effectively w/ S5 stormbolters Smile

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Sai on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:25 am

I'd think strike squads tend to lose in a straight up fight against terminators so the way I figure it, the more people who take power armour the better my terminators become.

Plasma is an issue, but everyone needs a weakness?

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Pyriel on Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:39 am

Sai wrote:I'd think strike squads tend to lose in a straight up fight against terminators so the way I figure it, the more people who take power armour the better my terminators become.

Plasma is an issue, but everyone needs a weakness?
Well bolter(stormbolter) fire vs bolter fire terminators are exactly the same when it comes to staying power. They fall half a much but cost twice as much.

Adding in special weapons terminators loose hands down since they shoot 4 and the strike squad shoots 8.

Terminators win in melee though but the strike knights cover more objectives, can have cheap transports and mess with enemy deepstrikes.

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by DonFer on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:22 am

I must say I respectufuly don't agree with some of your points Pyriel, other than those you're spot on.

First. The NDK is an excellent choice now in 6th, thanks to torrent. The Heavy Incin is so much better now with all those shrouded and stealth units running around the board. No cover saves for fast skimmers flating out. No cover save whatsoever for Tau, or eldar scouts, or DE Raiders. The list goes on. What makes the NDK a great addition to an army is the fact that it's threat range is quite long (normally 7"+12"+8", 13"+12"+8" with Jump pack). Add to it that it is a mounstrous creature which means that it won't die from HP and it actually is not easy to wound (if you consider plasma then any other 40k unit in the game has the same problem). Points wise, it is a heavy burden for any list, but when taken in lieu with cheap units (henchmen) it is actually very useful.

Second. Purgators. Problem with purgators is that they share the same slot with Dreads. But they're actually our pseudo purifiers allowing us to field 6 purifier squads. They can have 4 psycannons per five men, which means that any psycannon spam list must at least consider them. They bring much more to the table if you buy them a dedicated transport, namely the RB. although the Dread is boss in this slot it finds difficult to compete with 4 Psycannons and 1 TL HB, meaning more bodies to the table and more dakka. Long range shooting is always a problem with GK but as mentioned before, 6th is about bringing more bodies to the table and with that more firepower, and the purgators are just as great at that than any other unit from ou codex.

I think that 6th has oppened the possibilities for using other units that were cosidered "bad" in 5th. This is great for the game. Meaning we won't be seeing the same 3 Psyfledrad-mandatory list over and over again. Bodies and firepower is what's important here and GK can do that very well. The possibilities are endless.

PS. Thanks Mr. Ward ! Razz

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Pyriel on Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:18 am

DonFer wrote:I must say I respectufuly don't agree with some of your points Pyriel, other than those you're spot on.

First. The NDK is an excellent choice now in 6th, thanks to torrent. The Heavy Incin is so much better now with all those shrouded and stealth units running around the board. No cover saves for fast skimmers flating out. No cover save whatsoever for Tau, or eldar scouts, or DE Raiders. The list goes on. What makes the NDK a great addition to an army is the fact that it's threat range is quite long (normally 7"+12"+8", 13"+12"+8" with Jump pack). Add to it that it is a mounstrous creature which means that it won't die from HP and it actually is not easy to wound (if you consider plasma then any other 40k unit in the game has the same problem). Points wise, it is a heavy burden for any list, but when taken in lieu with cheap units (henchmen) it is actually very useful.

Second. Purgators. Problem with purgators is that they share the same slot with Dreads. But they're actually our pseudo purifiers allowing us to field 6 purifier squads. They can have 4 psycannons per five men, which means that any psycannon spam list must at least consider them. They bring much more to the table if you buy them a dedicated transport, namely the RB. although the Dread is boss in this slot it finds difficult to compete with 4 Psycannons and 1 TL HB, meaning more bodies to the table and more dakka. Long range shooting is always a problem with GK but as mentioned before, 6th is about bringing more bodies to the table and with that more firepower, and the purgators are just as great at that than any other unit from ou codex.

I think that 6th has oppened the possibilities for using other units that were cosidered "bad" in 5th. This is great for the game. Meaning we won't be seeing the same 3 Psyfledrad-mandatory list over and over again. Bodies and firepower is what's important here and GK can do that very well. The possibilities are endless.

PS. Thanks Mr. Ward ! Razz
Hmm, didnt it always have torrent...so what is new there? Besides flame templates never granted cover saves anyway.
You are right though, the heavy inc is the only weapon decent enough for its cost to be used on a NDK, the others are fun but not competitive.

The NDK is very good true but it does not cover in the weakness in the GK army like the psyfleman does. It kills infantry well but the rest of the army already do that quite well. It hits nice in melee but the GKs already have a lot of melee unit options and as with MCs it is always weak taken single and much stronger if taken in multiples.
Every army can handle a 2+ MC but bring 3 and they will struggle but this also means depleting the psyfledread slot and that is the only thing that can reasonably threaten fliers and has a long range (unless you spend a lot of points on flying chickens).

If the NDK was an elite slot then it would be awesome.

Maybe in henchmen lists that already have anti flier issues covered then the NDK would be really good.


Purifyers:
I simply dont see these as anything else then a fun but weak unit.
You shell out 180 points for 5 measly marines that die just as easy as 13p chaos marines.
Further on these guys wont hit anything due to their poor range so you need to further up the units cost with a razorback. You end up taking a heavy slot for a glass cannon unit and its glass cannon transport (135p that can stand behind cover and shoot everything from afar vs 230p for something that dies far to easy) that is killed very easely.
If this was not bad enough the razorback needs to move into position, stay alive while doing so, cover the purgator squad, they need to pass a Ld to fire at "half strenght" at something and this is simply such a kick to the groin of KISS that it will not work in a competitive setting.

If the purgators got free psycannons I might actually consider taking a squad but even then it would be a stretch and only used as a one-use gimmick glass cannon.

More bodies on the table are what the purgators actually dont bring, quite the opposite. You need to put the body count in a context of bodies-to-points and purgators cost so much for the little they do that they lower the body count.

Yes 6:ed has opened up more unit usage possibilities but not by making them good but by making the ones that were good to fragile/bad to keep relying on (see bale flamer).

And I would love to be wrong about this because I always wanted a purgator themed competitive GK army as well as a termie winged one with NDKs but so far I see them only as fun things for nice fun games.

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by DonFer on Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:37 am

Well, I agree the NDK doesn't need to bring anything new to the game, we already know what's capable of. The point is using those abilities in the current environment. It is not about using units your opponent won't have a way to deal with them (it's nice but almost impossible to achieve, actually that is the point of a balanced game) it's about using your units to present your opponent with many difficult choices in order to take advantage of bad desisions. That is why the NDK is not useless as you put it. It's a great unit, and of course taking them en masse is better yet.

You mention fliers as a weakness. I think fliers can be ignored as long as your saturation on the ground is enough to overwhelm your opponent's ground forces. I personally think that using the Dread for shooting down Fliers, is a waste of fire power (but helps). You have to roll 6s to hit, then 3+ to hit and even then hope your opponent doesn't roll that dreaded 5+ cover save. And even if you achieve that feat, you have a 1 in 6 chace to make that shot really count (destroyed). Meanwhile you can direct those presious 4 shots to a better target, causing wounds, striping HPs or just insta killing HQs. If you want to deal with fliers, take fliers or an aegis, or DA with flakk missiles.

Of course The NDK points cost is high, but as you said cheap troops are always a great alternative these days.

As for the Purgation Squad. Your logic that "just die as normal marines" is not sound with GK tactica. You have overpriced marines that "just die as normal marines" all over the Codex (SS, Purifiers, interceptors). If I considered this to be true I wouldn't even bother in taking Purifiers or Interceptors not even in fun games. I mean, 280 pts for a flat squad that "just die as normal marines"? heck I rather take 5 TH/SS termies any day. But this saddly is not the point of our army. Our units are not chosen because of survibality, but for firepower (hence strombolters and Psycannons). Want them to live a little longer? Add a transport. But be sure that they will die in the course of a game. What matters is when.

But back to Purgation squad. I will have to disagree with your glass hammer and glass cannon concept. RB spam has been a staple in almost any GK list out there, just like the Psyfledread, and for good reason. A cheap, reliable transport that packs a great weapon is perfect for any list. I would say better than the dread in some cases. And better if you take them en masse. What's not to like? AV11? 36"+6" range? 3 HP? None of the above. Add a Purgation squad and you have a double threat unit that will make your opponent think every second of his turn. Destroy the RB? Great have 4 psycannon shots in return. Don't bother with the RB? great S6 TL shots until the end of the game. Purgators are not great because of their psychic power. They are great because of the ability to spam psycannons. Granted they're not for every list, but then again what unit is?

I really do think that dismissing a unit just because it doesn't do the same as another is just ignoring the posibilities of our codex. And frankly the only useless units in our codex, those that no one will ever ever take, are few (Brother Captain and Ven Dread) and that is really somenthing to be proud of.


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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Pyriel on Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:32 pm

DonFer wrote:Well, I agree the NDK doesn't need to bring anything new to the game, we already know what's capable of. The point is using those abilities in the current environment. It is not about using units your opponent won't have a way to deal with them (it's nice but almost impossible to achieve, actually that is the point of a balanced game) it's about using your units to present your opponent with many difficult choices in order to take advantage of bad desisions. That is why the NDK is not useless as you put it. It's a great unit, and of course taking them en masse is better yet.

You mention fliers as a weakness. I think fliers can be ignored as long as your saturation on the ground is enough to overwhelm your opponent's ground forces. I personally think that using the Dread for shooting down Fliers, is a waste of fire power (but helps). You have to roll 6s to hit, then 3+ to hit and even then hope your opponent doesn't roll that dreaded 5+ cover save. And even if you achieve that feat, you have a 1 in 6 chace to make that shot really count (destroyed). Meanwhile you can direct those presious 4 shots to a better target, causing wounds, striping HPs or just insta killing HQs. If you want to deal with fliers, take fliers or an aegis, or DA with flakk missiles.

Of course The NDK points cost is high, but as you said cheap troops are always a great alternative these days.

As for the Purgation Squad. Your logic that "just die as normal marines" is not sound with GK tactica. You have overpriced marines that "just die as normal marines" all over the Codex (SS, Purifiers, interceptors). If I considered this to be true I wouldn't even bother in taking Purifiers or Interceptors not even in fun games. I mean, 280 pts for a flat squad that "just die as normal marines"? heck I rather take 5 TH/SS termies any day. But this saddly is not the point of our army. Our units are not chosen because of survibality, but for firepower (hence strombolters and Psycannons). Want them to live a little longer? Add a transport. But be sure that they will die in the course of a game. What matters is when.

But back to Purgation squad. I will have to disagree with your glass hammer and glass cannon concept. RB spam has been a staple in almost any GK list out there, just like the Psyfledread, and for good reason. A cheap, reliable transport that packs a great weapon is perfect for any list. I would say better than the dread in some cases. And better if you take them en masse. What's not to like? AV11? 36"+6" range? 3 HP? None of the above. Add a Purgation squad and you have a double threat unit that will make your opponent think every second of his turn. Destroy the RB? Great have 4 psycannon shots in return. Don't bother with the RB? great S6 TL shots until the end of the game. Purgators are not great because of their psychic power. They are great because of the ability to spam psycannons. Granted they're not for every list, but then again what unit is?

I really do think that dismissing a unit just because it doesn't do the same as another is just ignoring the posibilities of our codex. And frankly the only useless units in our codex, those that no one will ever ever take, are few (Brother Captain and Ven Dread) and that is really somenthing to be proud of.


Well there is no balance right now, not in the fair and fluffy way. Not all armies can handle 3 bale flamer spam or zombie horde with 9 oblits.
The NDK is great yes but it does not add anything unique to the pure GK army nor does it cover a n y of the GK weaknesses. Of course you can have such a build that the NDK finds its place in it yes but in general they dont add anyting. You waste a heavy slot and pay 160-ish points for a unit that cant do anything what so ever to safeduard all the other PAGKs against baleflamer spam for example.

Cheap troops is an alternative but, this might be just me but I love the thought of pure and undiluted GK armies, of course I can do all kinds of things and find room for all kinds of units if I start mixing in guard and necrons and even henchmen into the GK army but this is not what I would primarily want to do.
It would be like finding use for some seldom used chaos units by allying the army with orks. Doable, yes. Fun, debatable.


Fliers, depending on what fliers naturally, cannot be ignored. have you seen how many marines the usual 2-3 bale flamers waste per turn?
That is far from being ignored, its like ignoring those 15 hammernators in the middle of your entire deployment.
And what are you going to do about it, pay 160 points for yet another unit that is utterly pointless against them? Spend 400+ points on two stormravens or 400+ points on dreads that find use in almost all games against almost all opponents. Yes hey suck vs fliers but bar stormravens (that are even more expensive and pretty much a waste vs certain armies) what else do the non allies GK have?


Purifyers:
There is overpriced and there is overpriced. The regular strike GK are not overpriced since they hit back for what they cost and hit back good plus come with additional overall buffs and mobility.
Purgators were never used, not even back when the rhino-purifyer was the shitz and that was for a good reason.

You mention purifyers, sure they were great but were always used in vehicle spam lists but bear in mind...that is dead now!
Purifyers are gone, you can no longer do a tournament competitive army using massed purifyers in massed transports due to transport nerfs.

They are not for every list yes but today in 6:ed there are fewer and fewer spots left for them and yes, there are units that are good for every list. Strike squads is one such example.



We have more usless things in out codex then the ven dread. Some henchmen, the champion, most of the assasins, redeemer.

The things that are good but very hard to make useful in very competitive settings are the NDK and inc purgators.
The things that are ok but impossible to fit in a very competitive setting is the psycannon purgator due to a total mangling of the "KISS" rule.

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by DonFer on Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:05 pm

Pyriel wrote:
Purifyers:
There is overpriced and there is overpriced. The regular strike GK are not overpriced since they hit back for what they cost and hit back good plus come with additional overall buffs and mobility.
Purgators were never used, not even back when the rhino-purifyer was the shitz and that was for a good reason.

You mention purifyers, sure they were great but were always used in vehicle spam lists but bear in mind...that is dead now!
Purifyers are gone, you can no longer do a tournament competitive army using massed purifyers in massed transports due to transport nerfs.

They are not for every list yes but today in 6:ed there are fewer and fewer spots left for them and yes, there are units that are good for every list. Strike squads is one such example.

We have more usless things in out codex then the ven dread. Some henchmen, the champion, most of the assasins, redeemer.

The things that are good but very hard to make useful in very competitive settings are the NDK and inc purgators.
The things that are ok but impossible to fit in a very competitive setting is the psycannon purgator due to a total mangling of the "KISS" rule.

Massed transports is the rule in GK lists nowadays. Coteaz lists is one good example of that (8+ RBs). I don't seem to see a transport nerf in those lists.

The main point is Purgators and NDKs are a good option too. 5th was played in a very different way that 6th now is played. Lists then are completely different now. That is why a 5th Purifier list is not played anymore. People are using other units and builds today. But does that make purifiers bad, or non competitive? No. Same with other units.

We both clearly have a completely different concepts of the Codex, which is great and nice for a debate. I think we both have proved our points and will have to agree to disagree.

Cheers

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Pyriel on Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:11 pm

I was referring to pure GK. No massed transports tehre unless everyone else dues it too but so far the meta looks like it leans towards less transports and more foot slogging.

Henchmen are naturally a whole different ballpark. They are so fragile you need to protect them or amass them in silly numbers. One of the more powerful GK builds is actually to spam henchmen stormbolters. Tried it, works like a charm.

Oh, I dont disagree with you, its quite fun to listen to another opinion and I will testplay your ideas.
I dont say purifyers are worse then in 5:ed, Im saying that their delivery methods as used in 5:ed are dead. Im sure purifyers can still be added in a competitive build.

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by DonFer on Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:13 pm

I'm still struggling with a pure GK list. Points costs are a headache, but there must be a way.

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Pyriel on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:24 pm

What have you come up with so far?


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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Pyriel on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:59 pm

I could post my own favorite competitive pure GK list for you to take apart but where, in here?

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Rivan on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:09 pm

Pyriel wrote:I could post my own favorite competitive pure GK list for you to take apart but where, in here?

We can keep it here to continue the discussion on competitive 6th ed gaming. I'm interested to see it as well bounce

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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

Post by Pyriel on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:33 pm

Here it is:


Librarian
titan, summoning, shrouding, sanctuary, warp rift, skull

10 Paladins
banner,
apotechary
4 mastercrafted psycannons
Warding stave
(3 hammers, 3 swords, 2 halbeards)

10 strike squad
2 psycannons, psybolt ammo

10 strike sqaud
2 psycannons, psybolt ammo

Psyfleman dread

Psyfleman dread

Psyfleman dread

1835p



Those last 15 points is what changes every time I play this list, be it a hammer there or a mastercraft there or extra skulls etc but this is the core.
I have done great with this one against all kinds of competitive armies (all pure, no allies) but now its time to change it a bit to better do in 6:ed.
Ill remove one or two dreadnoughts and add one or more from the following list of options:
Cheap inq with grenades
Cheap inq with ulumeathi plasma syphoon.
Stormraven (most probably this)
More strike knights
Grandmaster instead of libby (both a great benefit in scoring paladins and a great downside in less buffs and no summoning, more enemy charges, more casulties from no stealth and less melee due to -1S).



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Re: Competitive 6th edition - what is it?

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