We are the new cheese!

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Re: We are the new cheese!

Post by Souba on Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:39 am

darn yeah of course Razz

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Re: We are the new cheese!

Post by nevek on Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:43 am

umm zelandin ravagers have av 11 so str 4 shots do nothing
plus you sell the dark eldar short by far
dark lances are more than missle launhcers as they r ap 2 and better at killing termies and lance effect kills lr's
dark eldar also outnumber a greyknight player pretty badly
raiders are dirt cheap for capacity and the firepower it comes with
vehicles in dark eldar get 5++ save and can lower the range of weapons by 6"...making it really hard to kill with psycannons
sure the psyrifleman dread is good at de vehicles...but de has generally more than enough lances to take care of them

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Re: We are the new cheese!

Post by Requiem on Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:59 am

Aye the DE are not to be underestimated! Their wyches with shardnets are an absolute killer against our termies and the like, as they will give us only 1 attack each en strike at higher initiative with loads of attacks coming at you.
The dark lances are absolutely tank killers with the lance special rule... wish i had those with my daemons xD highest str ranged shot i get is 8 ap 1, good luck downing a monolith spam with that

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Re: We are the new cheese!

Post by edmundblack on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:37 am

Zealdin - nope, they are. DEldar are that simple to use. Spam venoms, raider & ravagers, and for some reason those 5+ invulnerables will always work, and there's not an army out there which can make a significant dent in them quick enough. In my experience playing against them using several different armies, it's always the same: they stay out of range of anything whilst pounding whatever I have with lances and then closing with splinter cannons. Very rarely do I see infantry on the board, if at all. Because there's no need for them to do so. They'll just zip around plinking whatever I've got with pathetic ease. Sure, my lists aren't optimised (because I take what I want, not what the internet says I should), but I consider myself a capable player that knows how to use what I've got well. But facing DEldar is never fun, because it's always the same spammed lists. My GK list isn't archetypal at all, it's the same pretty much as I had in the previous book but with a Librarian and some transports. But DEldar will come along and sweep pretty much anything in their way whenever they feel like it, regardless of what they face. Note though - the DEldar player refuses to play the Guard player because he has Hydras. Funny that.

Anyway - point is, DEldar can easily "out cheese" GKs I think, and Psychotrokes are unnecessary. GKs are already pretty dandy in assault, why over-egg the pudding? If making some Banshees or Wyches clobber themselves really matters to you in CC, why haven't you shot the carp out of them beforehand?

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Re: We are the new cheese!

Post by DonFer on Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:45 am

Souba wrote:i played a strike squad/techmarine combo once and wont do it again if i field psyrifle dreads. so far the "cheese" list i created was undefeated and that for very good reasons:

if you got a 10 man strike squad with 2 psycannons, justicar with hammer and a techmarine with psychostroke grenades & rad grenades you will be having a unit that can hold objectives exceptionally well sure this unit costs 360~ points but for what those guys can you get pretty nice benefits. they can dish out good mid range fire and thanks to the techmarine and good objective placement you can most likely hold one objective with a 3+ cover save. you got warp quake to scare off enemy deep strikers and you get 2 hammerhands leading to a strength of 6 for the GK/techmarine
IF those guys get charged 66% of psychostroke grenade results are devastating for the enemy in close combat.

the heaviest results are :
2: i hit the enemy automatically and the enemy only gets 1 attack each
3: i get rerolls to hit against the enemy
5: the enemy strikes at I5
6: we dont really have to talk about this one do we? Razz

sure 360~ points is a lot but for a unit that will most of the time hold its objective in 66% of the games but in said 3+ cover it will stand there for a looooong time and will also scare off enemy attackers considering the damage they can dish back even if they get charged. and also in killpoint games you can use this unit as a pretty nice allrounder.

combine those units with things like psyrifle dreads, interceptors and the like and you have a army that can adapt to any playstyle pretty well. especially thanks to the GM and his grand strategy wich allows us to take fewer troop choices than most codizes and concentrate more on the killy stuff. looking at for exsample space marines at a 1750+ pts games with just 2 troop selections is almost a guaranteed loss for them considering you just have to deal with only 2 scoring units. a GK player can just use 2 troops and get additional 1-3 scoring units that are far better than the troop conterparts. its the combination this new codex of ours got to offer in addition that every unit on its own is pretty good.

necrons also got nice combos but if you destroy one link in this combo you let them fall apart like a cardhouse.
and no... razorspam with 3 acolytes is not cheesy. a razorback can get shot down quick and if that thing explodes you almost killed those 3 acolytes also. making objective holding pretty hard for them in addition to be easy killpoints.



So many ways available for dealing with such a death star unit. For grenades to work, people must assault you (or you should assault in which case you are a very juicy objective for your opponents shooters). If they don't, you just payed extra for something that only makes your model look scarier. Besides, such a unit costs 1/4 of your army. While you are waiting to assault/be assaulted, a clever opponent will obliterate the other 3/4 of your army before even considering trying to deal with the death star, just like what happened with the old monoliths. The point is, yeah 'nades are great but don't make an army unbeatable. Just like spamming raiders and ravagers for DE. It is great, it works but doesn't make the army unbeatable or easy to use for that matter.

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Re: We are the new cheese!

Post by Souba on Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:38 pm

@donfer: for one. you dont see the reason in this unit nor how it is optimized. many pay for a 10 man strike squad 2 psycannons and a hammer as one of their troop selections. you are only paying115 points more on this unit to enhance its use. nothing more.
it is not a deathstar it is a objective holder, and with that setup its one of the best available in the game. compare their abilitys and defensive potential with any other codex troop selections including or not including combos from IC's and come back again to enlighten me.

second. i play mostly 1750-2k point games, most tournaments play at 1750 points. paying this amount of points for a unit that has this potential is not a hard investment. considering you only pay 115 points more for a almost guaranteed save objective.

third. i guess we both know that the other selections the GK codex got to offer. GK's (of any sort) are not, by any means easy to "obliterate" by a clever opponent whatever codex he plays. if you play the rest of the so called cheese this army goes crazy easily.

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Re: We are the new cheese!

Post by DonFer on Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:44 pm

Sorry Souba, I'm not trying to "enlighten" you in any way. I'm also not trying to prove your strategy is bad, just that it isn't proof that GK are cheesy.
Secondly I think you are familiar with the term "die just like marines", so yes GK die as easily as SM. Any shooty army worth it's salt will obliterate any unit out in the open, 3+ cover save or not. This is a game of numbers after all.
As I said before, though one might think our codex packs some really powerful stuff, it doesn't and it comes out as a very balanced and good codex. If there were overpowered, we would see everyone playing your combo, or any other so-called-cheese. Thankfully we are not and we can see a variety of armies built out of our codex.

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Re: We are the new cheese!

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