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A new player has entered the game...

Post by fusioncell on Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:14 pm

Hey everyone,

So I have never played table top games before or Warhammer, I knew nothing about it really till I was given a book about Space Wolves and really enjoyed it, from there I got a few games and it was my birthday recently and I have some spare cash so I decided to take a look into playing table top! I went into GamesWorkshop and they let me paint up a Space Marine (in yellow, pretty awesome). I then went away and got a copy of the rules and been on the website and checked out all the armies, which as you can guess has brought me to liking the look of Grey Knights. I am still trying to pick an army to go with but at the moment its between the Grey Knights and the Space Marines (Imperial Fist because yellow is awesome).

I looked into the Space Marines (stole a friends codex) and they have a fairly easy to understand army, I don't know if there are rules to building an army but I figured a tank, some terminators, sniper scouts and a few groups of Space Marines and maybe a walker thingy would be a good idea for them, and they can be yellow.

On the other hand there is the Grey Knights which I know nothing about, all I know is there is a DreadKnight which looks an amazing model and they seem to have pretty heavy duty weaponry...and they are grey. So I guess I am looking for a where to start guide. Are they a good army? What style of play do they lend themselves to? and where can I find out more information about them? It was easy to find a wealth of information about the Marines but there doesn't seem much about the Knights.

Thanks very much, sorry if I rambled on a bit.

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by Rivan on Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:35 pm

Welcome Brother!

Grey Knights are definitely an awesome army to play although they can be considered an "elite" or "specialist" army that may require more tactical handling than other armies.

Have you familiarized yourself w/ the basic rules and mechanics of the game? This will help you better understand the strengths and weaknesses of each army based on how their abilities affect or are affected by the rules.

That being said, the first thing you need to understand more about GK's is the GK codex. The codex will give you the background as well as abilities for each unit.

Feel free to browse around the many threads here and don't be shy to ask your questions. Enjoy your stay! Very Happy

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by Aubec le noir on Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:47 am

welcome here young brother :
your first step is, imho, read the 2 codex and the base rules, then between the fluff of both and the way you think you'll like playing then you'll pick up finally your army.
One more thing : Yellow is probably the most difficult colour to paint, metallic is way easier in the beginning ... it might help for your choice.
and remember ... No GK has ever betrayed his oath !! it's the thing that i loved most with them ... hope it could help for your choice too !
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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by fusioncell on Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:01 am

Ok awesome thank you, I went a stood in my local model shop and had a flick through the codex this morning (I hid behind one of the stands but those books are expensive!) I have checked out a rule book but not in depth, sorry I was a bit unclear as to where I was up too. I was given 5 little Space Marine blokes and a paint set from my girlfriend after I went into the shop (she came with me) and showed me how to paint etc, I already had some army painter yellow primer, I have painted other models when I was younger so while it's a bit of a pain I really like it, its an awesome colour and when I went into GamesWorkshop and my local hobby shop no one was playing with yellow people, so I want to be a little bit different

My current understanding of the rules is rather basic but It seems fairly straight forward. You pick your army based on points (points in the codex) up to an agreed value, you then lay out your guys and start playing. There are different phases to each turn, movement, shooting and depending on where you are an assault phase. The game uses D6 dice and some templates and a tape measure.

Every person as a different movement range and weapon(s). Each person has action points (I am yet to understand how they are allocated and consumed, as in how much things cost) that allows them to do things. Every person has wounds which is basically HP and some have saves that can save them entirely or save their armour (again not sure on this rule, I don't understand the difference). Vehicles have slightly different rules I am yet to really get my head around.

I haven't really grasped an understanding of checks yet but I've only flicked through it once, and cover is still a little bit fuzzy for me, Its simple when everyone is cover but if only half it gets a bit complicated. As regards the stats the only two that I dont really understand is LD and I. I know LD has to do with scattering and such but thats a rule I think I need to see in action to understand and as far as I can tell I is just about who strikes first but I'm not sure.

Anyway I hope that gives you an idea where I am up too. So far it seems a really interesting game. I've tried watching a few matches on YouTube and I get the general idea but still working on the finer points. The guy who owns a shop nearly my girlfriend invited me to go in at some point and he will show me how the game works and the finer points but I a just trying to get as far as I can without going in so then hopefully I will have some decent questions, and I am currently still trying to find out some more information about the knights by power of the internet! I am also going to go an buy a codex for them and see what I can find out. I guess its best to buy it and find if they are the right army for me or not rather then buying everything for them only to find out I dont like them.

Edit: Also, this might be a stupid question but could I paint them any colour I wanted? I understand they are called Grey Knights but would the world collapse if I started playing with purple and green or yellow and black or whatever colour little blokes? Or is it one of those things that if they aren't the right colour you cannot play or something along those lines?

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by Klomster on Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:58 am

Just to make things straight. You're girlfriend invited you to the hobby?

Anyway.
I'll give a few info things, hope i make sense.

Every unit in the army is divided into different categories.
Hq, troops etc.
Depending on what categorie they are in, you can take different amount of units in that categorie.

For example, you can take up to 6 troop choices, but only 2 Hq choices.

Every unit consist of a number of models, be it 1 to 50, it's still a unit. Each entry in the codex say how many models the unit consists of. This can also often be added to for points, giving you more models per unit.

If you read the rulebook, alot will get much clearer on theese things.

So every model is part of a unit, and units have to stick together. They are normally in squads of 5-10 guys in a standard infantry group (troop choice)

The game does NOT have action points, but different turn sequences.

You have one army each, and let's say you get the first turn.
First you move all your units in the movement phase.
Then you shoot with all the weapons you can / want to shoot with. (Special rules may apply.)
Then you charge with every model that is within range and that you want to charge with.

Then it's the opponets turn to do the same.
When both are done, a game turn has passed, the game keeps going for as long the scenario sais.

Leadership is rather simple test, it's when to take it it gets fuzzy.
Here's the basic test.
A unit (let's say a group of imperial guards) gets shot by a weapon that forces the unit to take a leadership test or they have to flee.
The owner of the unit checks the highest LD value in the group (normally 8 IIRC) and roll two dice adding the results together.
If he rolls less than 8 on those two dice, the group is brave and holds their ground, if not they start to flee using the specific rules for that.

Initiative is important in melee.
The models with the higher I strikes before models with less I. Giving them a huge advantage.
For example, a group of marines vs a group of guardsmen.
The marines charge in, and they all have initiative 4, compared to the guardsmen's I 3.

Needless to say, the marines strike first.
When there are multiple I values in a group (perhaps a sergeant model has better stats, or a character has joined) every model with the same I value strike simultaniously.

So our marines had a captain guy with I 5. A bunch of marines with I 4.
The guardsmen had a commisar with I 4, and a bunch of dudes with I 3.
First the captain tries to hit, then all marines and the commisar tries to hit, lastly the guardsmen tries to hit.

Models can be negated their attacks if they are killed by someone with higher I, so this stat is cruzial in melee.

Otherwise, you seem fairly correct.

I'd suggest getting a black reach box and selling of the orks. You get a rulebook (without the juicy fluff section though) for cheap and all the templates you need.
Plus some ok models for marines.

As for painting.
Of course you can paint them whatever colour you like.
You can model every dude like dinosaurs with plasma rifles that are yellow if you like.

As long as it's clear what they represent in-game. (The dinosaurs will probably not fit in as anything, but i have faced an imperial rat marine list so who knows)

The point is, paint them as you like, but if you are gonna play GK, some people may frown upon you as they are "not supposed" to be any other colour.
But as long as you don't claim that they are GK (perhaps you like the models and play them as a special task-force of imperial fists, a bit unlikely for Fists to have such weapons though, or they are a special group of GK that have a different colour armour.)

Just do what you want. But don't claim to much, or you will suffer from nerds who NEEERD RAGE!!!
Like me Razz

Have a good one.

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by DonFer on Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:12 am

Klomster wrote: Just do what you want. But don't claim to much, or you will suffer from nerds who NEEERD RAGE!!!
Like me Razz

Have a good one.

You'll be fine fusioncell... as long as you don't mention Matt Ward in front of Brother Klomster... oh I did it again ... take cover!! Very Happy Razz

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by Klomster on Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:15 am



RAAAAAAAAAAAAGEEE!!!!

*Sounds of stuff beeing smashed, very angrily.*


You will notice that this forum is always serious. All the time.

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by fusioncell on Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:00 am

Thanks very much for all the advice. Yeah my girlfriend has been trying to find me a hobby for ages. I used to mountain board but crashed out during a final a tore my knee up pretty bad, and I was told to stop riding, I didn't then while racing my knee gave way. I crashed out broke both legs and an arm. I had compounded one of my legs by about 3cm so I had to be in traction for nearly 2 months and then had to learn to walk again due to the nerve damage. This meant that I wouldnt board any longer and have gotten fat lazy, which led to me getting depressed and now I am just coming out the other side of beating the depression and she is trying to help me find something to do...and she cosplays so she is open to anything. Anyway!

From what I can understand the Grey Knights are good in melee combat but after looking through the codex I have come across one rather large issue in that the points values are rather high and I guess that means for someones equivalent army they get a lot more little dudes then I would have which could prove problematic, I can see the issue of well yes they are good in close combat but how do I get them there without all falling over dead. There also seems to be no long range weaponry besides one assassin with a rifle which seems like it could be an issue when you compare it against a scout sniper squad which would be the better option. I guess the overall saving grace is that you have heavily armoured troops that can carry heavy weapons with no movement penalties, and that your standard little blokes have terminator armour which gives them good saves. After having a google I found about something called 'The Shrouding' (I am yet to find it in the Codex) apparently that forces the players to roll before they attack the Grey Knights.

The vibe I am getting from the codex is they are an adaptive defensive army. Waiting for the opposition to make their move then answering it with a hail of bullets or swift justice in a melee situation should the opportunity to charge arise. I am still trying to get my head around all the different unit types. The 'standard' Space Marine based units are a bit easier to understand then the variations such as the paladin squads and the inquisitorial characters as there are loads of different ones and am unsure as to how I would play them.

So if I paint them yellow I cannot call them Grey Knights? would that mean they cannot be played in a game or I just call them something different and just follow the normal Grey Knights codex?

XD thanks DonFer. I will admit I don't know who Matt Ward is but ok.

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by Klomster on Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:41 am

Man, that's alot in life and you're only 21.
Lucky you, you got the best girlfriend ever it seems Razz

Anyway.
The shrouding is a nice rule from codex deamonhunters, codex grey knights predecessor.
It's not valid anymore, so you can stop searching unless you plan on playing with a codex that is 10 years old.


And i think you are a bit spot on with the flaws in the codex, alot of expensive infantry without that many long range choices.
You'll want some dreads or raiders with lasacannons to take down tanks.
The vindicare (sniper) is alot better statwise than the group of scouts, but they fulfill different roles.

It is probably better if you start out with marines, they are cheaper, still have alot of elite units and are probably more forgiving since if you loose a squad of marines, you'll still have a few.
If you loose a squad of knights, you probably don't have that many more left.

You could paint them yellow and call them grey knights. Although i as a nerd would look a bit off at them.
But if they are painted really nice. Who really cares.

Matt ward is the guy who wrote the grey knights codex, among some other rulesets for gw.
He is generally hated accross the internet and the world for destroying fluff at its core, making broken armies and generally beeing a fanboy. (In a bad way.)

It is best if you just agree that he's an horrible person, or else you will suffer alot of nerd rage Razz

If you are just gooing to play the game and don't care much about fluff (background for the armies and stuff) you can pretty much ignore Matt Ward.
If you are going to indulge yourself in the cool world that is 40k, i urge you to ignore ward since he does some crazy stuff that doesn't fit.

Hmmm, yellow grey knights, the thought never occured to me.....
If you do try it please show us the result on a test model, and only one since you don't know how it will look.

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by fusioncell on Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:54 am

Yeah its been rough but worse things happen to people and it helps build character! Yep girlfriend is as solid as a rock, known each other since primary school!

A lot of people have steered me away from the knights, suggesting the Marines instead. The issue is I just don't like them as much. I don't want to offend anyone but they are kinda of bland in the world of 40k, jack of all trades master of none. Not that it is a bad thing but when you compare them or the Knights or Dark Eldar and such they are just not as rich in character. I can just see from a strategy stand point almost being able to fumble your way through a match with out any real strategy (Not to devalue them in anyway or anyone who plays at them, thats just an outside perspective from what I've learn't). As I said its not a bad thing but the feel generic, the I don't know anything and who to pick so I will go with the Space Marines. I mean maybe its just me, maybe that is the answer, play with the Marines for a bit till I find my playing style and pick from there?

I just dont want to go and buy an army that isn't rewarding to play as and has no longevity. I play a lot of PC strategy games so I know the pain of investing my time into a race to find they are nothing like what I had hoped or that no matter how good they are to play as I just cannot get attached to them due to their poor storyline or ugly looks.

Sorry if I offend anyone, I just want to get it right! Do models hold their values? If I was to buy an army and decide that they were awful or I hated the way they played are they easy to sell on?

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by Chaplain Thrace on Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:56 pm

WOW, you've done alot, got great support when stuff goes wrong, and by the sound of, a wise head on young shoulders, Keep going.

fusioncell wrote:
I just dont want to go and buy an army that isn't rewarding to play as and has no longevity. I play a lot of PC strategy games so I know the pain of investing my time into a race to find they are nothing like what I had hoped or that no matter how good they are to play as I just cannot get attached to them due to their poor storyline or ugly looks.

Then go for what you like, be it the backround/good-looking models etc. The point of a hobby is to take time out, and enjoy it.
I've lost more games than I've won, but I don't care, I enjoy the "history," look and eliteness of the Grey knights, (although I started them when they had a five year old, and increasingly out-of-date codex, so winning wasn't going to be easy).

If it helps, write up a list of reasons why you want to collected each army and reasons you don't (pros and cons).

Most models should keep decent value, e-bay and like are good places to see/sell/buy. Like everything second-hand you may not be able to sell at the same price for which you bought it. You might be able to if it's extremely well modeled and painted.

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by fusioncell on Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:30 am

Good idea, I will go do that today. Thank you! Smile

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by Klomster on Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:13 am

And if you buy the knights, you can proxy them as normal marines to see how they play.

Proxying is a good thing, to an extent.

Nothing wrong in trying out what you want to do without paying alot.

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by fusioncell on Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:03 am

Sorry this may be a stupid question, what is proxying?

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by DonFer on Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:50 am

Using one thing to pass for another. It's used a lot when you want to try out new units and don't want to buy them right away. Or as Klomster says, use the units you have to play them as another army, in case you find that other army suits your interests better. Wink

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by fusioncell on Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:33 am

Oh great idea!

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by Klomster on Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:36 pm

It's basically pointing at your models saying.

"This is normal terminators, theese are normal marines, and this box is a land raider."

Stand-ins, fakes, proxies. Call it what you like.

The classic example is the soda can carnifex.


Just don't be the owner of this army.




If you like them, it's "turn signals on a land raider." Not sure if it's still going, but there are some gems in there Razz

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by Snow on Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:04 pm

I think TSOLR went on hiatus.

Anyway, proxying (or borrowing an army) is fine, just make sure your opponent is down with it and wants to help you out. Last thing you need is to show up for 40k night and get matched up with the WAAC impatient guy.

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by jerbat123 on Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:12 pm

Sorry but I have to disagree with the above statement,I will play most players......to a limit.

But if you are going to take the time to get involved in this game,Buy the right figures for that said game Paint them base them and then play the correct army for the game.

A lot of us have spent the time painting/building/converting for showing off said army,Only to go up against an opponent with the dreaded silver surfer army from fantasy-land with the fisher price bubble machine land raider.

This really disappoints me,and I politely forfeit and say no thank you.

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by Klomster on Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:24 am

I'm not saying "Fuck buying models, you can play with carboard cutouts! And SODASTREAMS!!"

You can, and if you do... you will be frowned upon.

Only proxy when you want to try something out. If you like what you tried, get it, if not... ditch it.

Very simple.

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by fusioncell on Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:50 am

OK well I went into GamesWorkshop today with some friends after I explained to them I wanted to learn to play, me made little card markers with writing on and I played with the Grey Knights as little card board dots!

I went well, I found that I couldn't really go on the attack early on (lost my first game, we are playing with simplified rules while I learn) and then the second time I waited to counter their moves but the Orks were upon me very quickly and while I was able to cut down one group of them then kill them in melee there was a second group right behind them and some funny looking walker thingy and I was left with the issue that while dealing with on threat the others were able to take advantage and overwhelm me...but most importantly I had fun, it was hard, but fun.

Then we switched and I played with card board dot marines (and my 5 little marines! Their first fight, I was so proud). I lost the first game due to not really going on the attack, I tried the same tactic as with the Knights and waited. It was really close and I rolled for a save on my last terminators but sadly I rolled a 1 so my last guy died. The second match I was much more aggressive, took out the walker before it got anywhere near my guys and then proceeded to push forward and eventually corner the Orks and beat them! HOORAY! They were fun to play as, I felt like I was doing more with the Marines then I did with the Knights.

The whole match was fun with the Marines where as with the Knights it was a slow start but to a much more tense and climatic finish. I admit I think my friends let me win (they certainly helped me a lot) but I felt like I was actually making progress with the Marines throughout the whole game where as the Knights I didn't. That said the Knights were much more rewarding to play as, less versatile but when focused on one goal seems good at achieving it but they struggled with multiple threats.

I actually really want both armies, I think the play experience with the Marines was better but the journey I went on with the Knights was more rewarding and I really felt for them. That said I think I would get bored of losing a lot. I can see a few holes in the knights that ultimately left me open to attack and loss. The Marines were able to give me a better line up to fight back with, and it allowed me to focus much more on the strategy I wanted to use rather then the strategy that the Knights had to use, which I felt I had less options.

With all that said I have still not 100% decided but after that I am edging towards the Space Marines just because they for me are more versatile (in my opinion) and while their back history isn't as rich and they don't look as cool I think it is something I could work past (and I can paint them yellow). As I said not 100%, going to go over the codex of the Marines again and see if I can find a Marine based forum and ask some questions on their first to get a fuller picture.

So thank you all very much, a great idea about proxying, it allowed me to really get a feel for the armies. I appreciate all your help so far and possibly more in the future!

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by NemesisForce on Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:55 am

With the price of models nowadays I have no qualms about a player proxying to test things out first. What bugs me is seeing a video where a guy using Chaos Marines is counting them as Space Wolves.

"one attack per each lightning finger" Priceless. Laughing

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by Klomster on Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:23 pm

Good to hear about your first experiences.

And about the fluff bit.
Imperial fists (whom you know are yellow) have several books of fluff which of what i heard seems better then the new GK stuff.

But that's my opinion.

I'd say build a Fists army (or other self constructed yellow army, imperial fist second founding?) with alot of cool units, and a vehicle or two that you like the concept of.
I think alot of people would like to make you put everything in rhinos, and that can be a tactical and fluffy army to play.
It's done by virtually everyone!

But don't listen to hard to me, go with your own feeling.

Was it deffdread or killa-kan? 4 or 2 weapons? Deffdread is much larger.

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by fusioncell on Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:13 pm

The walker thing looked more like the deff dread but different colours, it was bigger then the other models on the table...and my paper dots XD

I am sorry what do you mean by Imperial Fist Second Founding? Someone said I can make my own chapter and yellow people if thats what you mean but apparently its rather complicated.

Yeah the Rhino seems a bit pointless to me, yeah you can move your troops around quicker but at a large point cost. I am thinking about doing something where some troops are on the table at the start and others are deployed as I play, we used something called deep strike to put some guys in while I was playing and it proved really useful. The people at games WorkShop and my friends told me that vehicles are really important for the Marines but the way I see it, the Marines themselves are the most valuable asset on the table. The focus should be on the Marines and supporting them, not a tank and working on how to get that into battle.

As regards the books with the Fists information in, where would be best to search for them? Or could you point me in the direction of any titles of them?

The experience was really good. It was great to test the armies against the same team with the same player so I could get a good grip on what the armies could do. Its a very enjoyable game to play, even though we played rather slowly (due to my lack of experience) everyone was patient with me, helped me feel really welcome to the hobby.

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

Post by Klomster on Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:49 pm

I'm not the best versed in what imperial fists books there are.
Someone else on the forum, please help brother fusioncell.

As for second founding, it's basically your own army based on one of the first space marine legions (who were later turned into chapters, know that all this stuff isn't even a fraction of all the 40k lore out there.)

So it's basically this.
Take a first founding legion, Imperial fists are one of theese. (the others can be googled, but you don't want them, they are not yellow Razz)

Take their prime values and iconografy, and spice it up.
Add some colour variation, perhaps purple hands? Or black helmets? And name them something cool like "Dorn's fury" or "The gauntlets of death" or perhaps "Emperors grip", try to incorporate the fist theme, since it's a pride thing the imperial fists and all chapters based on them have.

IIRC, the imperial fists like defending stuff. And are very good at it.
But perhaps your guys have come to the conclusion that "the best form of defense is attack" and use drop pods alot. It's the coolest way to travel after all. (After thunderhawk that is.)

Then you can come up with other things like how their fortress monestary is like, what the grand master is called and if your chapter is very damaged or thriving.
It's fun making your own chapters, and making each game more like a story than just matches.

Or you can just have them as Imperial fists, find out some info on them and base them on them.
Lysander is a cool Imperial fist hero and would look great leading your terminators.


And the deff dread having different colours. It's orks.
It's a bit like saying "What colour is space marines?" The answer is...... any. Really.
Heck, there was even the Rainbow warriors once, not any more though.

Gw saw fit to remove them somewhere at the same time as the tango dance expansion for space hulk.

Sorry for throwing alot of stuff at you, i am a proffesional forum dweller and have been in the hobby a while.

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Re: A new player has entered the game...

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