1850 Pure Pally

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by TheCrimsonGlass on Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:33 pm

You must combat squad during deployment, so they must deploy in the same manner.

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by Souba on Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:36 pm

combat squat'ing comes into play when you get the unit on the field. they have to arrive with the same type. for scouting and outflankin for example. both combat squads have to come from the same table edge, you can however still deploy them on both of them on different sides of that tableedge you want

you cant however deepstrike one squad and let the other outflank. if you outflank however, you also give the dedicated transport that ability and can add it to any of the 2 combat squads you wish.

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by MJSwasey on Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:39 am

also remember you CAN combat squad while deepstriking, but the order goes like this:

Put 10 man squad in Deep strike reserve.
Roll for entire 10 man coming in or not
When entire 10 man arrives, declare combat squads, and then deep strike each half as a separate unit (or dont combat squad and deep strike as one unit)

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by Rivan on Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:15 am

MJSwasey wrote:also remember you CAN combat squad while deepstriking, but the order goes like this:

Put 10 man squad in Deep strike reserve.
Roll for entire 10 man coming in or not
When entire 10 man arrives, declare combat squads, and then deep strike each half as a separate unit (or dont combat squad and deep strike as one unit)

Hmmm, I always thought they have to DS together and when they're actually on the table, they can opt to combat squad at that point scratch

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by MJSwasey on Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:10 am

Nope! You chose to combat squad right before you deploy (start placing models) You have to place a model to scatter from it, so you've already split up into two squads before you place that first scatter model.

It's exactly the same way you can deploy in two seperate places, or come on from different parts of the board edge, and dont have to walk on together or deploy together then split apart.

The reason that misconception started is because of drop pods, which are their own beasts.

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by Rivan on Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:19 am

Ahhh. Thanks for the clarification MJ. Darn, I've been playing my DS units wrong all this time Razz

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by GMKDynamis on Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:13 pm

thanks for the clarification brother MJS, my opponent said that I couldn't do that and I forgot to look that one up. Thanks Smile

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by Souba on Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:02 pm

actually what im really wondering is if you are able to combat squad while deepstriking. nowhere in the GK FAQ states it. not even the rulebook. however i found in the space marine FAQ:

Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and
then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other combat
squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the
Drop Pod? (p69)
A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not
break down into combat squads.


what really irks me is the answer...

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by Rivan on Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:11 pm

Ok, I'm confused now. So, if squads in reserve may not break down into combat squads, my GKSS must DS as 1 unit onto 1 location? And then split up after that? scratch

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by Rivan on Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:24 pm

Apologize for the double post but for what it's worth, GW rulesboyz said that units can only combat squad once they hit the board for the first time. So a unit of 10 GKT will DS together and can then CS if desired. They explained that the basis for this is "units cannot combat squad while in reserve" just like what they put for the SM FAQ.

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by Souba on Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:58 pm

ah good to know. but you still cant ds both halves on different locations. nice find brother rivan Smile

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by MJSwasey on Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:03 pm

Rivan wrote:Apologize for the double post but for what it's worth, GW rulesboyz said that units can only combat squad once they hit the board for the first time. So a unit of 10 GKT will DS together and can then CS if desired. They explained that the basis for this is "units cannot combat squad while in reserve" just like what they put for the SM FAQ.

Please note according to the rules, this isnt true, and rulesboyz have no more rules authority or knowledge than you or I. I can give out my number and people can call me, and the answers will be just as official but much more consistant.

The decision to combat squad is made when deploying. The rules specifically allow each squad to deploy in a seperate location, and deep striking is a form of deploying. It's in the rules, spelled out.

The reference in the faq is only confusing because of verb tense and the fact they were refering to a very specific situation - the question is specifically about having the combat squads seperate WHILE IN RESERVE, such as 5 in a vehicle and 5 outside. you can never ever have combat squads separate while in reserve, because combat squadding happens AFTER you come in from reserve (when you are deploying).

So yes, you can deep strike in different locations.

The inat faq and every other major FAQ i can find agrees with this, and says it is clarifying, not changing the rules.

As a note for those trying to get around this, unless you're in a drop pod or certain superheavies, you may never have a unit in reserve combat squad half in/half out of a transport. Thats because the models were declared to be in the transport, before reserving, and two units can't fit in a transport, yet they would both have to be inside when arriving, as declared.

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by Rivan on Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:16 pm

I hear you MJ. I actually agree with you and would prefer to be able to DS in 2 separate locations for a 10 man GKSS or GKT that splits up.

But following this train of logic, doesn't it look like a unit split up BEFORE arriving, hence they teleport in two separate locations? I think this is what the GW customer service person was trying to point out. Also, won't most tournaments (specially those sanctioned by GW) tend to follow GW's ruling on this?

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by Zealadin on Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:51 pm

The INAT faq can be as bad as GWS rulings.

As someone else said you can combat squad ON deployment. Not before hand. This shouldn't effect deepstriking units, because you are combat squadding as you deploy, allowing you to choose two different landing zones. (but both have to have the same reserve roll)
On the other hand you can't combat squad a squad who has purchased a vehicle, including a drop pod BEFORE deployment and try and use them as seperate units (ie one walks on, the other pods in, or one takes someone elses vehicle, the other pods in).
This muddies the waters somewhat when asking about a vehicle like a razor and a 10 man squad however.
The issue is this becomes extremely problematic quickly!

To be honest combat squadding is a horrifically powerful ability that SM pay nothing for, and which give them a hugely unfair advantage when you consider how so many new armies are forced to mimic SM rules, without any of the unique SM advantages that make everything come together.
Personally I think they should make it a general rule for 10 and 20 man squads.

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by MJSwasey on Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:53 pm

Rivan wrote:

But following this train of logic, doesn't it look like a unit split up BEFORE arriving, hence they teleport in two separate locations? I think this is what the GW customer service person was trying to point out. Also, won't most tournaments (specially those sanctioned by GW) tend to follow GW's ruling on this?

That's what I've been saying, arrival roll as one squad, deep strike two separate locations. This is the official GW rules.

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by Zealadin on Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:40 am

It does become an issue because it depends how you define the deployment 'phase'.
Obviously you can still combat squad, the wording actually says you can't combat squad if you reserve, but thats not the intent of the answer. You can still combat squad but only during deployment.

You can read the answer several ways: "No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads." Ok the combat squad rule no longer works for reserve units. (Thats a bit lame!)

"No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not
break down into combat squads to deploy seperately" This is how the answer should have been worded to incorporate the fact it is answering a specific question, and situation, and has veyr specific context.

Or "No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not
break down into combat squads to deploy at different times during the game, particularly if that unit enters play via a vehicle."

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by MJSwasey on Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:24 am

Zealadin wrote:It does become an issue because it depends how you define the deployment 'phase'.

Actually, combat squads don't care about the deployment 'phase' at all. The rule only cares about when you deploy, which could be during the deployment phase, or during any turn you come in for reserves, etc.


Yes it it poor wording. another way to look at it is this: That ruling is an FAQ, and not an errata. FAQ's are meant to clarify, and Erratas to change things. They way i've described it about was the unquestioned RAW before the FAQ. If they meant to change it, wouldn't it be an errata?

This isnt an airtight excuse, because GW and their notorious lack of giving a rats hind quarters about rules and the big middle finger to the customer that is there rules responses have used FAQs (which aren't official, btw, only errata are official unless your tournament says otherwise) to change rules before.

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by DonFer on Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:26 pm

As I understand it, deployment is done ONLY before the battle starts. There isn't any other deployment instances throughout the game. Deep strike is a form of arriving from reserves, not deployment. So during deployment, that is when you place infiltrators, move scouts, and you decide to combat squad your units, however you like. From then on your CS units act like separate units, that will have to roll separately when deep striking.

The fact that the rules state that this decision is made when the unit is deployed, as I understand it, means that during deployment you choose to leave any units in reserve or combat quad them. Since reserve units are "not deployed" they cannot combat squad any more. The only exception to this rule is when arriving via drop pod, which allows you to combat squad after disembarking from the drop pod.

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by MJSwasey on Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:00 pm

DonFer wrote:As I understand it, deployment is done ONLY before the battle starts.

If the above statement were indeed the case, that would make sense, but unfortunately the rulebook is very clear that deep striking is a form of deploying, and they "deploy" AFTER you succeed in rolling for their reserve roll (They actually do use the word deploy, in a startling moment of clarity). It's in the deep strike rules.

Furthermore, combat squadding does not mention the deployment phase or even deployment, it only says "when the unit is deployed"

Since a unit is "deployed" after rolling for reserves, and the combat squads happen when a unit is deployed, we therefore have to conclude that combat squadding happens after rolling for reserves.

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by Zealadin on Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:30 am

Deployment is two things as I see it, THE Deployment at the start of the game, and deployment which is any unit entering the game.
I think MJSwasey explained the order of how it works the best though.

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by DonFer on Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:38 am

While it is true that the word deployment is indeed a part of the Deep Strike rules, that doesn't make DS a form of deployment. Deep strike is never called a form of deployment. DS is actually a form of arriving from reserves.

Now consider that it is only during deployment that you declare reserves. And during this time that you decide to deep strike any of your units. Which means that there has to be only one "deployment", and that it has to occur only before the game starts. If there is indeed a deployment during Deep Strike, why there isn't anyone deploying infiltrators and moving scouts (both of which are part of the deployment sequence) during that wrongfuly-called deployment? A silly point of course, but helps me explain my point.

Perhaps a better wording would have been "[иии] place the models as follows." instead of "[иии] deploy them as follows". MJ's logic is sound though, since he supports his theory on the fact that there is indeed the word deploy in the deep strike rules, which can be interpreted as RAW. However some common sense should be applied, in regards that a unit arriving from deep strike has already forfeit their deployment, by choosing to stay in reserves. By entering play in subsequent turns the unit just arrives from reserve and does not deploy. Keep in mind too that a unit arriving via deep strike in a drop pod, is the ONLY exception to the CS rule (specifically noted like that), where you could CS them after they disembark the drop pod (Check the SM codex for the complete wording).

Since it is a matter that GW obviously will never settle completely, we can just use whatever players agree on.



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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by MJSwasey on Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:20 am


I highly suggest going back to look at the rules, and actually read them line for line for specifics - i'm not using favorable language to try and twist things. in this case the rulebook literally says going into reserves is not deploying, and coming in from reserves IS deploying, and combat squads only happen when you are deploying. I dont see how, giving those very clear wordings that are in the GW rulebooks, you could argue anything else.

You are using "deploying" interchangeably with the "Deploy forces" step (often called the 'deployment phase'. You cannot do this, as GW uses the terms as two very separate things. That is where, i believe, your confusion is stemming from

They totally seperate out the deployment phase of the game, which shouldn't even enter our conversation since the rules for combat squad have NOTHING to do with the deployment phase (which gw defines as a phase before the game), they only ever mention the action of deploying, which they are crystal clear happens after you roll to arrive. None of the rules we referenced (such as deep striking or combat squading) ever mentioned deployment, deployment phase, OR deploy forces.


TO be complete, the rulebook says before the game you do the 'deploy forces' step as step four of organizing a battle. At this time you may choose to actually deploy the unit, or you may choose "NOT TO DEPLOY" (<- GW's words, not mine) at this time and instead go into reserves.
During the game, any unit that passes its arrival role is then DEPLOYED (<- again, the actual word GW uses) at that time. you do not enter another "deploy forces" step, you just deploy the unit.

Furthermore, scouting does not happen during "deploy forces" (or the "deployment phase" as some call it. Instead, scouting happens IN BETWEEN deploy forces and the first turn, while infiltrate happens while you are in "deploy forces", just after all the other models.

Most players assume they know what happens during "deploy forces", when in fact they dont ever know the name of the phase, let alone what actually happens in it, rules wise (like most people assume that is when scouting happens, but it is not). So it really bears a good re-reading.

DonFer wrote:
While it is true that the word deployment is indeed a part of the Deep Strike rules, that doesn't make DS a form of deployment. Deep strike is never called a form of deployment. DS is actually a form of arriving from reserves.
Deployment (as in the phase) isn't used in deep strike, deploying is. Deep strike IS a form of deploying (the rulebook is VERY clear on this), it just has nothing to do with the deployment "phase".

Also, theres no need to even argue over deployment, because combat squads doesn't use "deployment" or the "deployment phase" - it simply says when they deploy. As stated above, the rules specifically say that arriving from reserves is deploying, and combat squads only happen when you are deploying. They match. They dont care about any "deployment phase".

DonFer wrote:
Now consider that it is only during deployment that you declare reserves. And during this time that you decide to deep strike any of your units.
Yes

DonFer wrote: Which means that there has to be only one "deployment", and that it has to occur only before the game starts.

careful. There is only one deployment "phase". As stated above, you do not have to deploy at this time. during the deployment phase it specifically says you choose whether to deploy or NOT TO DEPLOY and instead go into reserves.

DonFer wrote: If there is indeed a deployment during Deep Strike, why there isn't anyone deploying infiltrators and moving scouts (both of which are part of the deployment sequence) during that wrongfuly-called deployment? A silly point of course, but helps me explain my point.
because those happen in the deployment phase, not when units deploy. again, deployment phase does not equal deploying, and vice versa.

DonFer wrote:Perhaps a better wording would have been "[иии] place the models as follows." instead of "[иии] deploy them as follows".
I dont think so, because then you couldn't combat squad then.


DonFer wrote: However some common sense should be applied, in regards that a unit arriving from deep strike has already forfeit their deployment, by choosing to stay in reserves.
This is not true. They simply deploy later, instead of in the deployment phase. In your version of common sense, the units may never deploy, but in my version of common sense i follow the rulebook where it says they deploy when they come on, and it can happen at the very start or later. To me, personally, it doesnt make sense they arrive on the board but never deploy.

DonFer wrote: By entering play in subsequent turns the unit just arrives from reserve and does not deploy.

..... but the rulebook says they deploy them. i do believe when you "deploy" something, it counts as "deploying". am I missing something?

DonFer wrote: Keep in mind too that a unit arriving via deep strike in a drop pod, is the ONLY exception to the CS rule (specifically noted like that), where you could CS them after they disembark the drop pod (Check the SM codex for the complete wording).

the exception is for the fact they can both come out of a vehicle, not that they can combat squad from deep strike

DonFer wrote:Since it is a matter that GW obviously will never settle completely, we can just use whatever players agree on.
play with whatever you agree on, for sure. but if you're playing in a tournament, check with the TO.


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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by DonFer on Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:17 am

MJSwasey wrote:
I highly suggest going back to look at the rules, and actually read them line for line for specifics - i'm not using favorable language to try and twist things. in this case the rulebook literally says going into reserves is not deploying, and coming in from reserves IS deploying, and combat squads only happen when you are deploying. I dont see how, giving those very clear wordings that are in the GW rulebooks, you could argue anything else.

You are using "deploying" interchangeably with the "Deploy forces" step (often called the 'deployment phase'. You cannot do this, as GW uses the terms as two very separate things. That is where, i believe, your confusion is stemming from

The rulebook never states, that is, it never specifically calls" Reserves is a form of deployement". As you yourself said, the rulebook gives very clear wordings on the subject, and there isn't a place in there that specifically says "reserves is deployement" or anything similar. So in this regard, you're just assuming that coming from reserves is deploying, only and just only because the word deploy is used in the description.
A great example of assuming something that is not in the actual rulebook is NF Falchions, which was discussed extensively in another thread (I don't know if you took part in it, so I'm not accusing you of anything). Because on the description said "... inevitabily weilded as a pair" people assumed they granted +2 attacks instead of one. +1 for the actual bonus of being Falchions and +1 because they were two weapons. This usage of the word deploy is this arguements milestone to allow combat squadding after deeepstrike. Namely, "it says deploy, so it is deployment", or "it says pair, so it's +2 attacks".

MJSwasey wrote: They totally seperate out the deployment phase of the game, which shouldn't even enter our conversation since the rules for combat squad have NOTHING to do with the deployment phase (which gw defines as a phase before the game), they only ever mention the action of deploying, which they are crystal clear happens after you roll to arrive. None of the rules we referenced (such as deep striking or combat squading) ever mentioned deployment, deployment phase, OR deploy forces.

Correct they don't mention it since it is pretty clear when deployment is made. That is at the start of the game and not anytime you want.

MJSwasey wrote: During the game, any unit that passes its arrival role is then DEPLOYED (<- again, the actual word GW uses) at that time.


Wrong. The actual wording is "...picks one of the units ARRIVING (from reserves) and deploys it" which is completely different to say "... picks one unit deploying from reserves"

MJSwasey wrote: you do not enter another "deploy forces" step, you just deploy the unit.

True since deployment is done only at the begining of the game.

MJSwasey wrote: Furthermore, scouting does not happen during "deploy forces" (or the "deployment phase" as some call it. Instead, scouting happens IN BETWEEN deploy forces and the first turn, while infiltrate happens while you are in "deploy forces", just after all the other models.

Which is a complicated way of saying that they all happen during DEPLOYMENT.

MJSwasey wrote: Most players assume they know what happens during "deploy forces", when in fact they dont ever know the name of the phase, let alone what actually happens in it, rules wise (like most people assume that is when scouting happens, but it is not). So it really bears a good re-reading.

I don't know what are you trying to say with this, most players don't know the rules or are you reffering to a particular person?

Deployment only occurs at the begining of the game, hence a complte section dedicated to DEPLOYEMENT, with a deployment chart and everything. So all deployment references throughout the book refer to this specific section. Once again, using the word deploy, doesn't make it deployment. By doing this there is actually no interpretation of the rules at all.

MJSwasey wrote: Deployment (as in the phase) isn't used in deep strike, deploying is. Deep strike IS a form of deploying (the rulebook is VERY clear on this), it just has nothing to do with the deployment "phase"

Once again, interpretation of something that it's actually not said.

MJSwasey wrote: Also, theres no need to even argue over deployment, because combat squads doesn't use "deployment" or the "deployment phase" - it simply says when they deploy. As stated above, the rules specifically say that arriving from reserves is deploying, and combat squads only happen when you are deploying. They match. They dont care about any "deployment phase".

Wrong again, and at the risk of being repetitive: there isn't a phrase in the rulebook that specifically says that Reserves is Deploying. But following your logic, as I said before, it is sound. " they match" so you can deploy whenever is convenient for you. No arguement in that. However this is based on your interpretation of the rules.

MJSwasey wrote:
DonFer wrote:
Now consider that it is only during deployment that you declare reserves. And during this time that you decide to deep strike any of your units.
Yes

Finally something we can agree on.

MJSwasey wrote: because those happen in the deployment phase, not when units deploy. again, deployment phase does not equal deploying, and vice versa.

No difference there since deployment is done only at the begining of the game.

MJSwasey wrote: I dont think so, because then you couldn't combat squad then.

My point exactly.


MJSwasey wrote:
DonFer wrote: However some common sense should be applied, in regards that a unit arriving from deep strike has already forfeit their deployment, by choosing to stay in reserves.
This is not true. They simply deploy later, instead of in the deployment phase. In your version of common sense, the units may never deploy, but in my version of common sense i follow the rulebook where it says they deploy when they come on, and it can happen at the very start or later. To me, personally, it doesnt make sense they arrive on the board but never deploy.

You said it yourself, your version actually just interprets the rules to what "makes sense to you". If it doesn't then it is wrong?

MJSwasey wrote:
DonFer wrote: By entering play in subsequent turns the unit just arrives from reserve and does not deploy.

..... but the rulebook says they deploy them. i do believe when you "deploy" something, it counts as "deploying". am I missing something?

Excatly, you believe it counts as, and that's exactly the whole point of this discussion. Keep in mind that this is an interpretation you are giving to the rules. It is actually not mentioned anywhere in there.

MJSwasey wrote:
DonFer wrote: Keep in mind too that a unit arriving via deep strike in a drop pod, is the ONLY exception to the CS rule (specifically noted like that), where you could CS them after they disembark the drop pod (Check the SM codex for the complete wording).

the exception is for the fact they can both come out of a vehicle, not that they can combat squad from deep strike

No, in this case the unit is arriving via Deep Strike in a Drop Pod. No difference whatsoever in deep striking. The unit is not allowed to combat squad, but it has the exception that it can, once it disembarks the drop pod.

MJSwasey wrote:
DonFer wrote:Since it is a matter that GW obviously will never settle completely, we can just use whatever players agree on.
play with whatever you agree on, for sure. but if you're playing in a tournament, check with the TO.

Once again, something we can agree on.

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by MJSwasey on Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:48 pm

I wrote a whole long post responding again, but I realized it got repetitive and it boils down to one basic argument. DonFer, if you'd like a response to a specific part of your post please let me know, as I have it, but for the sake of brevity:

THE SUMMARY
My argument boils down to: when the rulebook tells you to "deploy" a unit, you are "deploying" it.
DonFers argument boils down to: Even if the rulebook tells you to deploy something, you are not deploying it unless you happen to be doing so in a specific phase of the game.

It's true the rulebook does not does not say 'when you deploy you are deploying', but i didn't think it had to, i thought that was a fact, and not questionable. I now realize that that is not always true to some people.

The rulebook also doesn't say anything about how you are only deploying during deploy forces, and even if you deploy some other time, you cant count as deploying. (in fact, it doesn't even say you are deploying in deploy forces. does this mean you cant ever combat squad with this interpretation?)


I think from this point on we can agree to disagree, as I obviously think theres no way you could be right and vice versa from a very basic perspective, so unless that basic perspective shifts for one of us there can be no agreement.

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

Post by DonFer on Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:39 pm

Excelent notion, I concur. As always, glad we had the discussion. Smile

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Re: 1850 Pure Pally

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