1850 Tournament Grey Knights

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1850 Tournament Grey Knights

Post by librisrouge on Tue May 17, 2011 12:41 am

I have a local tournament coming up in about two weeks and I'm trying to narrow down the list I'll take so that I can try to fit in some practice games. What do you guys think about it?

HQ-
Inquisitor Coteaz

Grand Master - Master Crafted Force Sword, Incinerator, Rad Grenades, Digital Weapons

Elt-
Vindicare Assassin

Trp-
Henchmen Warband x10
Warrior Henchmen x10 - Bolter x7 and Meltagun x3
Chimera - Multi-Laser and Heavy Flamer

Henchmen Warband x10
Warrior Henchmen x10 - Bolter x7 and Meltagun x3
Chimera - Multi-Laser and Heavy Flamer

Henchmen Warband x10
Warrior Henchmen x7 - Bolter x4 and Flamer x3
Psyker x3
Rhino

Henchmen Warband x12
DeathCult Assassin x10 and Servitor x2

Terminator Squad x5 - Hammer/Incinerator, NFSword x2, and NFHalberd x2

Hvy-
Land Raider Redeemer - Multimelta (Terminators + GM)

Land Raider Crusader - Multimelta (DCAs/Servitors + Coteaz)

Dreadnought - TL Autocannon x2 and Psybolt Ammunition

The goal is to have two primary assault units with everything else pulling support. You'll all probably tell me that I need more psykers, and you'd be right, but I'm a bit short at the moment of models . Ah well.

Some may notice that I'm a bit short of units for Grand Strategy but I do have the max (3). Most likely I'll just take Hammer of Righteousness but in objective games it is tempting to make the Dreadnought and/or Vindicare scoring. I know the Dreadnought is debatable so I'll test the local gaming clubs rules before doing that.


Last edited by librisrouge on Tue May 17, 2011 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Forgot the Psykers)

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Re: 1850 Tournament Grey Knights

Post by Zealadin on Tue May 17, 2011 4:04 am

Can you get sb's instead of bolters?

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Re: 1850 Tournament Grey Knights

Post by librisrouge on Tue May 17, 2011 9:20 am

It's what I have them modeled as, so no. I kinda prefer bolters. They work well with the aggressive stance I usually play with and are cheaper.

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Re: 1850 Tournament Grey Knights

Post by Rivan on Tue May 17, 2011 12:29 pm

Just curious...why would the dreadnought be debatable? GS specifically mentions walkers so I don't see any grey area in making the dreadnought scoring.

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Re: 1850 Tournament Grey Knights

Post by librisrouge on Tue May 17, 2011 12:47 pm

I agree but some people believe that this is the one instance where the BRB overides a codex. The BRB states that vehicles aren't scoring. Some people are crazy IMO because if the Dreadnought isn't scoring then Ravenwing Speeders that are part of the troops choice isn't either (even though C:DA specifically says it does.)

I've gotten into one argument and I'd like to keep it at one.


Last edited by librisrouge on Tue May 17, 2011 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 1850 Tournament Grey Knights

Post by Rivan on Tue May 17, 2011 12:55 pm

librisrouge wrote:I agree but some people believe that this is the one instance where the BRB overides a codex. The BRB states that vehicles are scoring. Some people are crazy IMO because if the Dreadnought isn't scoring then Ravenwing Speeders that are part of the troops choice isn't either (even though C:DA specifically says it does.)

I've gotten into one argument and I'd like to keep it at one.

Now I'm really confused...BRB states that vehicles are scoring?!? scratch

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: 1850 Tournament Grey Knights

Post by librisrouge on Tue May 17, 2011 1:31 pm

Sorry. I meant not scoring.

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Re: 1850 Tournament Grey Knights

Post by Rivan on Tue May 17, 2011 1:57 pm

Oh ok.

Now, I can't believe people will actually argue that BRB trumps a codex? GW's official stance is codex always trumps BRB. That's the reason why our old smoke launchers worked regardless of the 5th ed BRB.

But you're right, best not to get into any more arguments. It really is a complete waste of time IMO.

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: 1850 Tournament Grey Knights

Post by MJSwasey on Wed May 18, 2011 12:21 am

Until the FAQ comes out it's grey.

People aren't arguing the BRB trumps the codex. They're saying the way the codex is worded, giving them the GM ability still doesn't allow they to capture or control.

Almost everyone agrees that they probably meant it to be able to score, but RAW they cannot claim objectives because someone at GW didn't know the rules well enough to write it so that they did, and put the intention in there without realising there were still rules preventing it.

Everyone, turn off your ears. I'm about to explain why, technically, dreads still can't score even if they get the special GM ability. We all know they're supposed to, we all have a solid idea what will be in the FAQ, but RAW one of the writers messed up, and this is why, if you care to know. It's a complete waste of time, because it's a technicality that will get cleared up and most people will play the other way anyways. If you're still reading, you must be really interested in learning how the rules work just for fun. I warned you.

Think about it this way - a dedicated transport to a troops squad counts as a troops unit. It is a troops unit, period, for everything, including scoring. The problem is in the scoring rules they specifically state that vehicles, even if they count as troops, can't claim or contest.

Now the GM rule never actually overrides this. It says the unit counts as troops for the purposes of scoring (can claim as if it were a troops choice). The problem is, even if it WAS a troops choice, it still can't claim, so making it troops for the purpose of scoring does nothing.

Some people say "but wait, MJSWASEY! It says it CAN CLAIM. so obviously it must be able to claim, right?" No. If the sentence just said "the unit can claim objectives.", then it would be alright. But you can't just read half the sentence. Otherwise many special weapons would autowound, as you could shorten "A model that hits an enemy with XXXXXX wounds it on a roll of a 4+" to "a model that hits an enemy with XXXX wounds it". Obviously not allowed.

It says it can claim as if troops. That gives it the ability to count as troops for the purpose of claiming, nothing else. If a special ability says you "can move as if you were a jump troop", but a brb rule (such as leaving a transport that moved) says you can't move, even if the special ability was a codex rule you couldn't move. That is because the identical grammar in both cases says you simply count as something for a certain purpose (troops for scoring, or jump troop for moving) it doesn't give you the ability to "always move" or "always score".

Anyways, thats the reasons why, if anyone tries to pull it against you. It shouldn't be, it will be fixed, and 99% of people will play the intended way, but for now, this is the actual RAW.

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Re: 1850 Tournament Grey Knights

Post by librisrouge on Wed May 18, 2011 1:08 am

There's the argument. The awful, terrible, hateful argument that keeps me up at night with the desire to swear at people across the ocean. The fact that it is RaW is also why I don't like arguing it because it puts me in the position of backing up RaI which doesn't hold a drop of water.

Ah, well.
Back to strategics.
study

What does MJSwasey think of the list?

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Re: 1850 Tournament Grey Knights

Post by MJSwasey on Wed May 18, 2011 2:46 am

I try not to comment too much on Warband lists, as while i play a lot of games with a lot of units, I play GK.

I have been fiddling around with a lot of lists. If i were to comment, I think i would have to say i find this list a little to diverse. You only have two reliable meltagun squads, and they're in chimeras, so any opponent afraid of you popping tanks will just take those out first. I don't see any unit that's a good counter to TH/SS termies (the assassins are ok when they get the charge, but since your shooting is lackluster at best the opponent can just screen with a throwaway unit and never get charged. Once you leve the LR with the DCA to charge a unit, you die to anyone rapid firing anything.....

Your CC threat is only a few termies and some assassins. Your long range shooting is a dread, vindicare, and two multi lasers.

It seems like CC armies CC better than you, Shooty armies shoot better, and balanced armies do both better.

I think theres a few ways to go with this, and some really fun things you can do. Librarians are fantastic for henchemen - might of titan makes then viable against vehicles, and Shrouding makes them 3+ cover, fixing two of their major weaknesses. You can still do the LR thing with that list, but I prefer the 2-3 storm ravens, maybe with one purifier squad and a dread or two with MM tucked in the back of 1-2.

I like the 3 LR godhammer 2 Ven dread multi chimera lists, where you spam cheap troops in tough vehicles, screen everything with LRs, and shoot much better, keeping just one counter assault squad.

I like the balanced lists that mix in strike squads with at least 3 multi melta squads and a few razorbacks to present more options (or some crowe/purifier)

I also like henchmen terminator lists, but done with less distraction. Theres several ways i've seen that i like. one uses paladins to deepstrike small squads of 1-3 in the backfield (using weapons for wound allocation) with cheap dreadknights you keep him busy with small squads around 150 points, but he HAS to take them out or they'll kill a squad of his. This takes firepower off of your advancing henchmen, and more importantly prevent him from forming up against your frontal charges. If i know you're coming from a direction, i can do layer cakes and hug terrain just right and get great fire lanes. If i'm constantly moving to hunt down deep strikers, or move away from them so they can't assault, or just worried bout spreading out to limit their damage, I'm much more likely to let you get multi assaults and be a little closer to you then i normally would.

The other lists use a large pally squad not combat squadded, with draigo to absorb wounds, and perhaps 1-2 other reg termies squads (i like 1 10 man squad combat squadded, max psybolt and GS potential). It takes max psycannons, scouts the termies, and sets up 20 ish terminators at the middle of the board first turn, firing alot of psycannons and being tough to dislodge. Librarian can be substituted for some better CC powers and shrouding. Your chimeras run around in the back multi lasering. You melta then assault any vehicle that gets midfield.


I just think your lists as is folds really fast - you lose 1-2 tanks on the way in, the rest to melta when you are close, and the remainder of your list is expensive guardsmen and 5 terminators. Yes you'll do some damage when you hit, but you'll fold to return fire of anyone who was smart enough to screen, and games will go downhill fast.

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Re: 1850 Tournament Grey Knights

Post by librisrouge on Wed May 18, 2011 9:03 am

Yeah, that's the problem I've been having and I'm seriously considering substituting the Grandmaster for a Librarian in order to get Shrouding (+3 cover on the turn I pop smoke, attach him to the henchmen so they're more likely to be close enough to benefit, basically what you were talking about.) I've only played about a half a dozen games with the new codex (and thankfully won them all) since I've got a new born but I've had an uphill battle most o' the way and that's not the way to go into a tournament.

Assuming that there are only two options, which list would you go with?
1) This list (with mild/moderate twiking as I only have so many models Smile )
2) Draigo, Vindicare, Ten man Paladin Unit (designed to be combat squaded and for wound allocation), Five man Terminator Unit, Two Ten mand Interceptor Units.

I've had more success with list two at 1850 (easier games at least.)

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Re: 1850 Tournament Grey Knights

Post by MJSwasey on Wed May 18, 2011 9:53 pm

glad to see my theoryhammer still is pretty sharp, lol

I'm partial to not taking henchmen, so don't go by my opinion - i don't have the experience to make them work

I will say two ten man interceptor squads is way too many interceptors, and I find that draigo actually works best stuck in the one big ten man not combat squadded- he eats the ap1/2 and s8 and makes it just rock hard, and you have to eat through draigo and 6 pallies before you start taking out the 4 psycannons.

What models do you have? i think your list could be much more effective if you dropped the crusader, servitors, and the termies (and maybe the vindicare, if he keeps getting punked early, but maybe not) and added another dread and a squad of purifiers, perhaps replacing 1-2 DCA with storm sheild guys. Also, perhaps drop GM for libby. you're transformed into a "trap" list. You reach out with some long range firepower, and if them move in on your seemingly week list, you punch them in the face with purifiers and DCA. Enough vehicles and tough enough to last the game on objectives, plenty of troops.

With the other list, at 1850 I'd drop the two interceptor squads down to one max. Two can work in some lists, but in an already light on models termy list, it would need serious playstesting and honing of skill. stick with one for now

split those five termies into squads of 1-2 paladins instead, and get a cheap inquisitor or libby and buy skulls. Draigo can keep them out late with -2 reserve rolls, and turn 4-5 you can deep strike them in on objectives with d6 less scatter. Not an obj game? do the same, but using them to hunt isolates squads without much firepower.


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Re: 1850 Tournament Grey Knights

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