Matt Ward

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Matt Ward

Post by Nausaden on Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:50 am

Brothers, I've been receiving an odd amount of hate for our new codex as of late. The typical cries of cheese, overpowered, and ruined fluff for the Grey Knights is loudly proclaimed throughout my store and on the internet. It seems that most of this is directed at Matt Ward himself; who I will agree has some awful habits in his codex writing.

But I've read the GK codex back to back many times; and I think the lore and stories and representations overall are fantastic. I wanted to hear my fellow brethren, in particular the ones who have played 3rd edition like myself for so long, in their opinions on our codexs lore and fluff. What works? What doesn't?

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Grimhack on Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:43 am

What strikes really weird to me is that right now you can field grey knights with an inquisitor wielding a daemonblade and having daemonhosts running (floating?) around.
It just seems so wrong...

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Rivan on Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:34 am

@Zealadin: I agree. I've read the all the background and fluff and I love it. True, some are OTC, like Draigo. But he's the stuff of legends! As for the game application of our units, just like with every other codex, you have the ability to make a cheese army. You can mix/match min/max all the units to make an uber power army. But how does this make us different from IG or SW? I'm sure everyone has seen the ML spam in many a SW list (heck, I saw 20+ in one SW GT list). Or the chimera/hydra tank spam in IG (aka leafblower) lists.
We can make really mean lists ourselves now so it'll be up to individual players how they incorporate what the fluff means for them I guess.

It'll be awhile before I delve into the inquisition aspect of our codex since I primarily love the all GK theme. Even with an all GK theme, I make sure to follow the fluff as I see or understand it. I only have 1 unit of purifiers because there are very few of them to begin with and I'm sure the rest are elsewhere in other battles. I have a squad of Paladins because I have a GM and they are his assigned personal bodyguards. I still use a LR since that's still a very big part of GK's in TDA mobility. Things like these. Anyway, that's just me. We have an awesome codex, its up to us how we want to mesh gaming and fluff for our army Very Happy Just my two cents.

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Souba on Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:39 am

i have to agree. many things in the new codex dont fit the so puritan way the grey knights always took like brother grimhack already said. on top of that the codex is written like a superhero story written for 14 year olds. draigo for example.. he is terrible. his fluff is something i wish i had never read a word about.

and one thing that bugs me the most : the story of the purifiers and especially crowe. in 10000 years. not a single GK has been corrupted by chaos, they are uncorroptible(sp?). the purifiers are even more uncorupptible than their brothers and top top that all. crowe is even more uncorroptible than the purifiers... and he wields a deamon blade because having it sitting at titan in a stasis field or something wouldnt be a better idea....

thats just... wrong in so many ways

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by fa11en on Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:11 am

I quite like it to be honest. I also find it best not to get overly upset about the 'superhero story' telling when it comes to a game of toy soldiers Very Happy Also given the previously limited amount of fluff and the mixed opinions of the Ben Counter interpretation (which I really like), I just think it's nice that they are at last more fleshed out.

I don't entirely get the hate for Matt Ward though, as I think his stuff is reasonably balanced from a game perspective. Maybe people just take their fluff too seriously?

That said I do agree that it seems a shame to have lost the strict adherance to grey knights being puritan and refusing to work with radicals, but I will simply choose to adopt that position anyway. From a game mechanic I can understand simplifying the army contstruction, as 5th ed codexes don't tend to use restrictions like the old 3rd ed one.

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by DarkRonin on Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:09 am

After reading it through a few times, I have to admit, that I enjoyed the lore. A few things I didn't care for which drastically changed from the old book to the new one (This is what happens when you have different authors: McNeil vs Ward).

Back in the day, our Knights started in Power Armor and then became a Justicar. After that a Terminator, and then a Brother-Captain. And finally a Grand Master (If they lived long enough). Each guy starts in Terminator Armor now that it seems weird. There was a hierarchy in growth there that was easy to understand. This was probably changed to have Terminators as troops, but still, at least make them sound more like veteran troops compared to fresh out of boot camp.

I will admit that after seeing Draigo's fluff, I can't find myself to ever truly use him on the table. It makes no sense unless I'm actually facing a massive Daemonic Incursion and his aid will be greatly needed (The Warp poops him out with the Daemons)! Though I will admit that after reading the battle report in White Dwarf that something stirred inside me in regards to Draigo. Will I use him every game? No, but that is why I'll be working on various GM conversions over the course of the next couple of months.

As a person who greatly enjoyed the fluff behind radicals (A few Radical Heretical posts floating around) I am shocked that Daemonhosts can be fielded on the same table as Grey Knights. Even more shocked that Inquisitors running around with daemonic weapons (daemonblade, hellrifle)! And to top that off, we have a Knight running around with a Daemonblade too (Why couldn't they just make it sound like he is keeping it on hand like in a scabbard while he used his own Anointed Blade?).

If I didn't want to play Knights, and wanted to play a Radical, I'd have to field Coteaz, who is a staunched Puritan who would literally have a field day with smashing my own head over and over again for being a Radical. To see Coteaz on the table (Or any Inquisitional Warband with daemonhosts on the table) is an affront to me to as a player who loves even more the sight of my Puritan Grey Knights standing off against the denizens of Chaos with nothing more then their own courage and strength of arms to see them through the day.

I've never played them that way before, and I never will from a Fluff perspective. Though I might pick up another Coteaz model and make it different from my first one so that if I am in a Radical mood, I can use that one instead. Or I'll just ask if its all right with my opponent for me to use the old Daemonhunter Codex (The Daemonhosts are so MUCH better there). Sure no Daemonblade or Hellrifle goodies, but it's better from a fluff perspective there (Besides, I'd get to use Assassins with Infiltrate and Storm Troopers!)

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Constantine on Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:16 pm

I agree that we should be happy that we got fleshed out with some fluff!
I am also an old school GK guy who doesn't think that GKs should be fielded with daemon hosts or other daemon touched weapons/troops Evil or Very Mad

That being said, it is only MY vision and interpretation of what the GKs should be.
Variety is the spice of life, so just do what feels right for you. Cool

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Nausaden on Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:09 pm

Very well spoken brothers; I am very pleased to have heard your thoughts and opinions Very Happy

I feel as though I should state that just because you have a radical Inquisitor, with a daemonhost or daemon blade, it DOES NOT ruin the fluff. Think of it this way; the Grey Knights do not know at this point the Inquisitor is a radical. He could be elsewhere on the field, careful not to let on, or the Grey Knights merely are preoccupied with far more concerning affairs and will shift their attention to dispose of him immediately after-wards or when they catch on.

What I'm trying to say is, it can be fluffy and make sense. Even though I will never take a radical, or much of anything non Grey Knight in any lists, its just a train of thought.

Crowe is intersting and adds something a bit different; though its utterly so that he SHOULD have an anointed weapon to use. The fact of the matter is, even if he isent drawing on the power of the Daemon Blade, he's still USING it. I don't care if its to cut freaking bread, its giving it a purpose and acknowledging its existence in that way.

Besides...Crowe would be happy with a 3++ in close combat, so bladestorm would be great. He feels too weak in comparison to other Brotherhood champs on the grounds of the sword, although he can make up for it with purifiers. And again, on Purifiers, a 10 man squad is all I'd ever take, just as Rivan said.

On a final note, I GREATLY enjoy the role of Terminators. Its a nice presentation of how elite GK's really are when our newbies are so veteran they are already stronger then veteran companies in every way.

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Constantine on Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:37 pm

Another angle you could use for incorporating a radical Inquisitor is that GKs are the militant wing of the Inquisition and as such must follow orders right?

The GKs could be ordered by an Inquisitor to provide support. When the GKs arrive they would realize that the Inquisitor is a radical, but they would also see the Daemonic incursion that they had been summoned to crush. IMHO there isn't a GK alive that would turn their back on a daemon incursion because they didn't want to fight beside a radical, at the end of the day daemon's need to have their asses kicked, and it is our responsibility to do just that regardless of who we are beside at the time.

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by DarkRonin on Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:46 pm

Both points are valid, but if we take fluff into perspective (Old DH Codex), it was said that it is rare indeed to find a Chapter of Space Marines willing to fight alongside an abomination like a Daemonhost, even at the request of the Inquisition. The very thought of Grey Knights willingly to fight the Arch Enemy side by side with Daemonhosts is in the words of Brother Nausaden: EXTRA HERETICAL!!!

Though, at the VERY END of the day, after the Daemons have been defeated, the Grey Knights will slay the Inquisitor and erase all traces of his corruption, including his Daemonhosts.

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Constantine on Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:51 pm

DarkRonin wrote:Both points are valid, but if we take fluff into perspective (Old DH Codex), it was said that it is rare indeed to find a Chapter of Space Marines willing to fight alongside an abomination like a Daemonhost, even at the request of the Inquisition.

Though, at the VERY END of the day, after the Daemons have been defeated, the Grey Knights will slay the Inquisitor and erase all traces of his corruption, including his Daemonhosts.

I agree,
Another justification for the force composition that fits with your interpretation is that the GKs are aware of the fact that the radical =I= is needed to prevent a colossal Daemon manifestation, and they are just using him until the task is done, then they will kill him and his Heretical henchmen. This way several battles could be fought and the fluff would hold up.

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Ceasarian on Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:46 pm

Concerning the fluff aspect of the new army it almost seems like the Grey Knights/ the Imperium has "grown up". Think about it- if you are fighting a massive daemonic incursion, are you really willing to fight with one hand behind your back?
Matt Ward has done a interesting job to show how the Grey Knights/ the Inquisition have decided to put the defense of mankind ahead of ancient morals. They actively use daemonic weapons and xenos technology to fight Daemons that are hellbent on destroying mankind. I found this turn of the fluff interesting as it really showcases how desperate the war for humanity's survival is becoming. Although the fluff about Draigo is a bit silly at times.....but these things happen.
-Cease

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Rivan on Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:10 pm

Very true Brother Cease. The new GK codex is definitely the grown up version. I used to imagine GK's as Lawful Good knights that represent all that is good. Not anymore. I'm not even sure we can consider them Lawful Neutral. They're tasked to destroy daemons and the minions of Chaos and they will do WHATEVER it takes to achieve their mission.

By now, everyone should know that in the 40K universe, there is no such thing as black and white, only shades of grey.

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Constantine on Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:46 pm

Rivan wrote:Very true Brother Cease. The new GK codex is definitely the grown up version. I used to imagine GK's as Lawful Good knights that represent all that is good. Not anymore. I'm not even sure we can consider them Lawful Neutral. They're tasked to destroy daemons and the minions of Chaos and they will do WHATEVER it takes to achieve their mission.

By now, everyone should know that in the 40K universe, there is no such thing as black and white, only shades of grey.

Well said brother! I especially like the referrence to the color grey Smile I have always thought it made no sense when I read about how the imperium of man to tries to oppress psychers or destroy xenos technology which it does not understand. Evolution and adaption are the only way humans will really be able to survive and grow. Of course Caution needs to be used at all times, but the mentality of destroying everything/one that is different, which was the predominant attitude during the great crusade just seemed ridiculous, and reminded me of the mentality of certain early Terran war leaders that persocuted those that did not fit an ideological ideal.

What are we teaching the youth of today besides intolerance?

Then I took a step back and remembered that it is all a game.....right?
In terms of the game itself, I enjoy the closed minded dogma that is adopted by the imperium of man, my only hope is that others are able to understand that this mindset is only acceptable in games and not real life.

Unfortunately I am also one of those people that believes that violent video games are contributing to violence in our society. Ironic that I enjoy them SO much isn't it. Razz

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Grimhack on Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:59 pm

Something which I did like is the hole medieval knights theme coming into them. If you look at their training and the way to become a paladin, makes me think of quests. Especially the paladin thing sounds like a quest for the holy grail!

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by DarkRonin on Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:09 pm

I'll go with Shades of Grey for now. But that doesn't mean that I'll be using Radical pieces or characters that I've set aside for Puritan Characters to act in the stead of Radicals. I'll just make a Radical version of Coteaz, and in the off chance that I do field Crowe, I'll just throw him into harms way hoping that he'll die a bloody death Twisted Evil

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Klomster on Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:02 pm

Cons.

Some of the art is crap.
Most of the new background is iffy at best.
Many of the models doen't even beat the old ones.
View of GK allies are very bad.
Gk are now normal pansy marines, fearful and crap.


Pros,

New pagk are nice.
One or two artworks are nice.
Dreadknight makes excellent mechanicus things.


Overall. Dissapointment.

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Nausaden on Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:34 pm

I really loved the art overall; especially all the profiles for Terminators and the big page spreads.

Loss of fearless...seriously disappointing though. Anyone else think Purifiers should have been freaking WS 5? Seems fitting. A real shame.

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by raven925 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:22 pm

Overall, i like the codex and i like me some psycannons. The fluff im not too concerned about, but there are some debates already in the codex that are very obvious, but the rule mongers are gonna fight it to the end(or until it gets FAQ'd) So far the thing im really meh about is losing ws5 and s6, but ill get used to it, i mean we are gk players and we are the most loyal of them all. Also im not too fond of the new minis compared to the old ones, with the exception of crowe and draigo.

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Brother Blutcher on Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:52 pm

Thank you, brothers, to have over come the "new cheese over powered GK codex of death" that will kill every thing in tourneys... Thank you cause looking more about the link between fluff and rules, many things just go wrong....
I will remain a puritan player, though I would have been intersted to play a radical =I= force... but imaging GK fielded beside Excomunicate Traitoris inquisitor is just impossible to me...

Sorry mister Ward, your dex could have been a "must" edition, beeing so much un-achieved, it's just an other GW product.
You could have include alternative "human" troops to field in "all inquisitorial" forcees, or made a pure GK dex. You granted us an "ever damned" Supreme Grand Master who is just weird to field in most battles, unless you play a gigantic game, and created a paranoļac sect inside our holly ranks...
No piece of wargear reflecting the Faithfull Holly warrior GK were, like sacred insence...
Your book is just a set of rule using tricks, that allows kids to argue around a game table.

Thank you again, mister Ward, I was expecting this dex to make me dream, now I just want to wake up... Sad

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Dakmor on Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:15 pm

I would have to agree. The fluff is really messed up in area although there is tons more fluff that shows more light on the Grey Knights and their deeds around the galaxy. Draigo fluff is rediculous but hey, if its now sanctioned lore then oh well.

I think making HQ choices that are their own units is absolutely rediculous. I wont use more then a few HQ choices as just because of points costs/ effectiveness. Crowe would of been brilliant as a IC. I understand the Mordrak situation and think he is the best HQ choice for a grand master right now. Draigo is too damned expensive and lacks AT capabilities and this makes him vulnerable to walkers. Hell, even Mordrak has a MC DH.

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by DonFer on Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:36 am

I've heard the same ranting against Matt Ward with the BA codex last year. "Oh damm Mat Ward, you gave us the Sanguinor, soooo overcosted", "Matt you've just killed our Terminators", "Matt, damm your soul, the Death Company is so ridiculous it sucks!" "To hell with the Sanguinary Guard, you gave us nipples Matt Ward!!"etc. etc. etc. Seems it's just natural to hate him, personally, and his work too.

Now hardly anyone complains with his BA Codex because it is a great book. And no one remembers that BA once allied themselves with Necrons to defeat the Tyranids (why Matt, why??? Very Happy), because they're too busy playing finals all over 40k tournaments.

I love the new Dex, and think every unit/character has potential. I'll get them all, because I've started playing 40k with GK and are my main (and most beloved) army. The fluff has changed, and I welcome the changes. Fluff won't stop me from fielding Draigo, or any other unit for that matter.

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by stormknight on Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:36 am

fluff wise considering pyschic powers are drawing upon the power of the warp, created by the daemonic, having daemonhosts to fight daemons doesn't seem completely ridiculous considering grey knights are constantly wavering towards using the powers of the enemy yet putting a different name or face behind it. perhaps the reason some artefacts aren't available to grey knights because the powers behind it would make them less of a greyknight if they weilded those powers.

Although i really do hate dreadknights because they take away from tau battlesuits which imo should be sooo much cooler than some greyknight pushing buttons... that could be a bit harsh but surely he could of thought of something more unique to model like a model of adeptus custodes.

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Goat Horns on Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:39 am

I remember reading it and the one thing that stood out was the whole story involving the Grey Knights covering themselves in the blood of sisters of battle, I really couldn't understand the logic behind putting something like that in.

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Re: Matt Ward

Post by Grandmaster Markus on Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:32 pm

Overall I like the codex, they did some interesting things with it. I really like the weapons options and being able to customize each squad. And I'm glad that we have a new codex. But like others have said, fluff wise theres some issues I have with it. I don't like the whole being more "incorruptible" thing when no one in the history of the chapter has been corrupted, nor do I like the killing of the sisters thing. I don't mind Draigo, I think he's kind of cool but I kinda wish they did something different with him.

But I really really hate that they made them a 1000 man space marine chapter. I don't see why they would have to be only 1000, the not knowing and possible having higher numbers was cool in a sense that it made them different from other chapters. They have to be able to cover the whole Imperium and they don't have to follow any rules or restrictions. How are they supposed to do that with only 1000 guys, let alone the eight 100 man brotherhoods? In general I don't like how small the numbers are with the space marines. I guess I just liked Grey Knights being so different that they could hardly be called space marines. I guess I'll just have to pretend in my head. Sad

Grandmaster Markus
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Re: Matt Ward

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