OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by NemesisForce on Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:08 am

When Deep Striking via teleportation do all eligible armies use the exact rules layed down in the rulebook or are some better at it than others? For those of us who dislike the idea of bikes and landspeeders as Fast Attack options I was thinking it would be kinda cool if GK's were more intensely trained and had a slightly better understanding of technology when it comes to teleportation. Some options could be:

1) GK's scatter on 1D6
2) if a 'hit' is rolled for scatter then GK's can still make an assault move
3) if a 'hit' is rolled for scatter GK's can move as well as assault but still scatter on 2D6

The above are just some ideas and can be tweaked or mix 'n' matched to make them playable. I know this would never see the light of day in print and may go against fluff but maybe it would actually make using FAGK's more desirable in the teleportation role.

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Crassus on Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:35 am

I think we should split the Brother Captain into a HQ Brother Captain and a Elite Terminatior Justicar. Use the Old BC stats on the Termie Justicar and Inreace tons of stuff and the BC and GM

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Justicar Dionitas on Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:05 pm

NemesisForce wrote:When Deep Striking via teleportation do all eligible armies use the exact rules layed down in the rulebook or are some better at it than others? For those of us who dislike the idea of bikes and landspeeders as Fast Attack options I was thinking it would be kinda cool if GK's were more intensely trained and had a slightly better understanding of technology when it comes to teleportation. Some options could be:

1) GK's scatter on 1D6
2) if a 'hit' is rolled for scatter then GK's can still make an assault move
3) if a 'hit' is rolled for scatter GK's can move as well as assault but still scatter on 2D6

The above are just some ideas and can be tweaked or mix 'n' matched to make them playable. I know this would never see the light of day in print and may go against fluff but maybe it would actually make using FAGK's more desirable in the teleportation role.

All deep striking units use the rules in the BGB. The use of a teleport homer negates the chance to scatter. the unit has to teleport with in 6" of the model with the Homer (Doh!)


Last edited by Justicar Dionitas on Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Dvil on Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:19 pm

Justicar Dionitas wrote:
Dvil wrote:
iamnothere wrote:Looking at the other recent codei(?)

Words ending with -us have a plural ending in -i. Genii, hippopotami.

Words ending with -x have a plural ending in -ices. Codices, matrices.

Believe it or not GW actually used Codexes. Yes we all know it's wrong but id GW put's it out it's canon right?

Judging by the proof reading on the books, it would be a miracle for that to be picked up by them.



Sorry to everyone for going so off-topic.

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by SIRSEAN on Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:22 am

ok, spanish is my motehr languaje, so, I'm not going to say anything about the grammar...

but about the suggestion rules, I think that almost all of us agree with the point cost (must be lower) and better psycannons.

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Klomster on Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:32 pm

i think the only thing that needs lowering is wargear cost, weapon costs and justicar cost.

Everything else should just get better.

And ofcourse the psycannon should get ap3, or a supershell that negates all saves, ALL, but the cannon can only fire one. Oh and it should ofcourse do d6 wounds to!

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Sondosia on Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:45 am

Psychic powers
Banishment: Pick a daemon unit within 18" and LOS. That unit has to pass a LD test (Ignoring fearless of course). If failed roll a d6 for each model. on a 4+ a wound is taken no saves allowed.
All others are fine in my opinion

HQ
Wheres our chaplain? Seriously are order are supposed to be fighting the very thing that corrupts the souls of all it touches and we don't have a chaplains to support them on the field? I don't think they should not be leading the army so a rule stating that they don't fulfill required HQ slots should be used. He needs to have something Grey Knighty about him so -1 Ld to all daemons, comes standard with sacred incense, NFW, stormbolter with psycannon bolts, replace litanies of hate with litanies of banishment (allows no inv saves on the charge to anything not just daemons.). Justicar and Brother captain stat level options?

Brother Captain: 2 Wounds.

Inquisitor Lord:Can take up to 2 of the following. The option to buy +1 to strength, + to one characteristic if puritan (WS/BS/I/A?) and +1 if radical(T/S again/W/I?). Stat boosts are mostly there to give them flavor that inquisitors need. Strength bonus could be from being an inquisitor so long that he has either a lot of implants or has become part space marine, radicals have the stuff of chaos has begun/is flowing through them altering there physical make up, puritans have a century of training behind them and as such have improved there skills. Puritans and radical options are mutually exclusive naturally, the radicals will lose access to Grey knights and Space Marine allies. Radicals can be used as part of Chaos Space Marine and IG forces just like puritans can ally to Imperium forces (possibly allowing assassins too?).

Elites
Inquisitor: Similar options as above but can only take 1 of them

Daemonhosts: Able to buy a re-roll on the power table. This would hopefully make them more dependable in peoples eyes and as such have them show up on the table more frequently.

Terminators: Psycannon bolt upgrade option for the squad.

Troops
Stormtroopers need some adjustment just not sure what.

Grey Knights: Rhino with sacred hull as standard option.

Fast Attack
I'm unsure if there should be anything in here other than the teleport squad that can take an extra special weapon. If bikes did make it in, they should have teleport homers built in and probably lose shrouding. Moving fast would make it pretty hard to use, that or roll 4 dice and remove the lowest.

Heavy support
Dreadnoughts: One can be upgraded to venerable and moved to either the elite or HQ slot (This is based on only a few ever being entombed and if i remember right its normally only Brother Captains and Grand masters that are). 0-3 restrictions for the whole army.

Misc
Whole squads being able to buy frag grenades(for 5th ed)
Orbital strikes having a BS if the rumored changes to ordnance are true (scatter dice minus BS=scatter distance)
The assault cannon stats fixed
Power of the machine spirit in land raiders
Rites of exorcism replace the words "which take instability tests" with "on the battle field"
Redifne daemonic infestations daemon packs


I think I covered most of what I think needed/wanted to be updated. I didn't touch point costs as thats for someone else.

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Gioz on Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:19 am

My 2 cents (focussing on GK only, not inquisitors)

[Wargear]
* Psycannon cost reduced by 5 pts (so 20 pts for squad weapons, 25 for IC)
* Radio link: 10 points. Counts as a teleport homer. If more than one radio link is on the table at the start of any turn (and the O.B. is still in reserves), you can reroll the dice to see if the O.B. enters in play. When O.B. comes down, reduce its scatter distance by 1" (to a minimum of 0" meaning 'hit') for each radio link that has LOS to the area of terrain it was aimed to. After resolving hits as normal, roll a dice: on a 4+ you can reposition the O.B. in another area of terrain which a radio link has LOS to (probably this time it's simply easier to inform the other player instead of writing down the target secretly).

[Rules and abilities]
* Shrouding is still 3d6x3", but distance rolled is halved for daemons.
* No more rites of exorcism, but no more sustained attack for daemons.
* Assault cannon fixed
* Power of the machine spirit in land raiders fixed

[HQ]
* 0-1 limit only to GM, not GK hero (so in a GK-only army you can have 1 GM + 1 BC or 2 BC)
* If an army includes a GM, you can take termy as troops; doing so, PAGK/IST squads can be taken only as Fast Choice and you cannot have more PAGK/IST units than Termy Troops
* QG retinue can be 2-9 (now is 3-9, I can't understand why having terminators elite squads as BC + 2-9)

[Elite]
* Terminators at 45 pt, all with psycannon bolts
* Terminators can get a dedicated land raider (or one of its variant) transport (and still mantain their ability to enter via DS, if they want to)

[Troops]
* PAGK justicar at 40 pts (now costs 50)
* PAGK squads (justicar too) can take psycannon bolts at +2 pts per model
* PAGK can deep strike
* PAGK can be chosen as Fast choice
* IST can be chosen as Fast choice

[Fast]
* PAGK MUST deepstrike OR have a land raider (or one of its variant) as dedicated transport (in this case they can't deepstrike)
* Stormtroopers MUST have a transport OR get the 'scout' special rule at +1 pts (maybe +2?) per model

[Heavy]
* 0-1 GK Dreadnought w/ one DCCW with built-in incinerator and a dreadnought psycannon (dreddy psy: can fire as twin-linked psycannon OR 36" S8 VP3 small blast, ignores inv. saves). Same abilities as GK (shrouding, aegis considered at Ld10). Cost? Dunno Razz I think about 140 pts (maybe 150 with extra armour included)

Edit: Psychic Powers (partial)

* Scourging (20 pts - use at the start of the GK shooting phase): until next turn, each psycannon shot (even bolter shots with psycannon bolts) fired from the psyker and his unit gain USR 'Rending' (maybe also: other shots gain a reroll to wound, but for each '1' rolled to wound (from psy shots or not) cause a wound to the firing unit)

I'm still thinking about psychic powers, I'll let you know for them. I'm quite sure that with these rules GK can get a (small? better than nothing Very Happy) boost without changing so much the codex we are used to play!
Comments?


Last edited by Gioz on Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:22 pm; edited 6 times in total

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Klomster on Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:23 pm

Enforce deep strike and terminator troop choices feels wrong for me.

I'd hate enforced deep strike, as my poor knights always gets messed up when they deep strike.


Most wargear should cost 5 points less, (and the same stuff the vanilla marines have should cost equal for knights)


I like dread with gk rules, it is after all a grey knight.

Enforced stuff is not what i wan't.

1 dreadnought? I understand your fluffwise point but cmon!

Lance strike should be able too change targets. It scatters enough as it is.
Same cost added variety, maybe you'll have to begin by having it in a terrain piece, then when it arrives it may change targets on a certain roll or 2d6 or 3d6 in a direction chosen by the player, maybe a leadership test.
It's just bad now, it works very rarely.

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Gioz on Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:54 pm

Klomster wrote:Enforce deep strike and terminator troop choices feels wrong for me.
I'd hate enforced deep strike, as my poor knights always gets messed up when they deep strike.
Yeah, I'm with you, but I thought this problem can be resolved with homers at 5 pts (maybe a wargear to put homers on vechicles); GK are especially fluffwise to teleport, and with 5th ed. rumors say that bad scattering won't always kill. Moreover, for the rules I posted you are not enforced to always deep strike - the real difference from now is that in my rules you can DS all your units!

Klomster wrote:Most wargear should cost 5 points less, (and the same stuff the vanilla marines have should cost equal for knights)
Probably you're right, but I didn't mind yet on wargear other than psycannon tongue

Klomster wrote: 1 dreadnought? I understand your fluffwise point but cmon!
You got it Very Happy but with scourging to make rending shots, land raiders and their POTM spirits (more shots!) - and rumors for the 5th ed saying we probably would see less vehicles - we can have nearly-all the fire support we need. I like dreddy too, but I think that two are really too many for a GK army Rolling Eyes
I mean, I don't want a codex for 5th ed, simply a playable army that's still mantaining the fluffwise I like so much!

Klomster wrote:Lance strike should be able too change targets. It scatters enough as it is.
Same cost added variety, maybe you'll have to begin by having it in a terrain piece, then when it arrives it may change targets on a certain roll or 2d6 or 3d6 in a direction chosen by the player, maybe a leadership test.
It's just bad now, it works very rarely. Very Happy
..but when it works, it's very funny! Twisted Evil
No, really, you're right. It needs a change.

PS: I edited my post above, please tell me what do you think especially about radio links Very Happy

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Klomster on Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:49 pm

The radio links seem fine, that or maybe a bonus for the roll to change the target.

With my targeting ideas i would be able to start targeting particular units, atleast their last location.


Maybe something like this.

Plotting: In the beginning of the game, before deployment but after sides have been picked, choose a terrain piece or a deployed enemy unit.
This is secret and your opponet will only know of the strike when it's revealed.
The strike arrives through the reserves rules (always) and strikes the terrain piece or the place the unit stood/stands in the beginning of the game.
If a terrain piece was chosen, roll one D6 times 2 if arrow etc.
If a unit was chosen roll 2D6 (or maybe 4D6 without double) and resolve the hits like ordanance.

Leave a marker at the location the strike will hit home, if it was a terrain piece, you can pick points in the whole piece for each shot.

You can switch target by making a replotting test. (4+ leadership or other) If you succed you may pick a new target immidiately and fire in the same turn, if you fail, the strike will hit the last location/ the last terrain piece (so points within the piece may still be picked)

Radio link/Comms array/jubra of psychic might-talk to ship-thingy:
You get a bonus as long as this model/model with the upgrade is still alive.
Like +1 to replot rolls or 3D6 and take the lowest for leadership test. Depending on what it is, 4+ or LD test.

This seems an interesting idea, my idea needs lots of polishing though but i hope you get it.

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Gioz on Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:14 pm

Klomster wrote:If you succed you may pick a new target immidiately and fire in the same turn
I missed that! Two shots in the same turn? Shocked

Klomster wrote:jubra of psychic might-talk to ship-thingy:
what the.. rotflol lol! lol! lol!

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by NemesisForce on Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:14 pm

Fluffwise I like the idea of just 1 Dread as long as they do have more special ablities (Shrouding, etc.) to make them stand apart from the Dreads of other armies. As Gioz hinted the 1 Dread limit might not be such a set-back in 5th edition.

In the Apoc GK Redeemer data sheet they refer to the force as Redemptors as well. I immediately thought this would be a cool name for a GK specific vehicle. A transport/gun platform something in size, armor and expense between a Chimera and Land Raider. Mounting turret twin-linked psycannons and hull-mounted incinerators it could be a GK (specific) Troop transport choice or maybe a Fast Attack option much like a SOB Dominion squad. It maybe could come standard with Blessed and Sacred Hull as well. Stretching it even a bit further it might be such a specially-crafted machine that a dedicted GK unit may be psychically attuned to it enough to include the vehicle in it's Shrouding ability. I'm sure someone else has thought of this type of vehicle before but a non-LR transport that doesn't smell of regular Space Marines would be nice.

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Klomster on Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:25 pm

???
Oh i missed that, i intended it to instantly fire at the neew coordinates.

Would be nice with a barrage though, (Hehehehehehe)


And nemesisforce's redemptor..... nah, something about it say it will look like a buggy.
And i find it not fitting for grey knights kroozin abart' like orks in a buggy with twinlinked psycannons.

A redemptor class land raider crusader maybe.
2 sponson mounted twin-linked psycannons.
1 turret mounted twinlinked incinerator.
1 multimelta, like the crusader.
Machine spirit, (this issue is as far as i know fixed with the wargear book stating all land raiders and assult cannons beeing the same)

Gk dread with 13 12 11? Big badass psycannon (str 7 ap 2 if small one is ap 3)

And of course 3 attacks initiative 3 and a dreadnought nemesis force weapon.
Dunno about stats yet but it will certanly whop deamon ass!

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Holywarrior16 on Thu May 01, 2008 9:32 am

Basically the thing that I want is to un nerf the shourding and aegis rules, there so weak and some times go into the useless category

The second thing is either lower points of the grey knights so they can be some what point worthy (possibly 5 points).

-Or-

Beef up the grey knights stats or add some other special rule so they can be able to last longer then the average space marine and can be some what of an assault army like they were inteded.

THe last is some sort of new units...Not exactly land speeders or predators (For that will make them more like SM) but something...

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Klomster on Thu May 01, 2008 10:14 am

Yeah, better special rules.

1D6x3/4 if you ask me for shrouding, at least 2.

And a ld test only to resist the psychic power, and free unguents of warding. (negate the effects of psychic powers targeting the bearer on 4+)

Un-nerf the knights, give them better rules.

Make the enemies suffer!!!!

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Emperors_Will on Tue May 06, 2008 11:50 pm

yeah i dont like the ideas of predators land speeder and bikes. as it has been stated before that would just make us a "prettier" version of the other space marine chapters.

perhaps new rules to better keep us in line with all of the fluff we read about that says we have access to the very best of absolutely everything. Likewise i think a LR suited to our needs would be perfect.

"Heavy" version of Psycannon and or Incinerators would be great too. I have faith we will get a buff with the release of series 5

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Klomster on Mon May 19, 2008 12:33 pm

I will suggest a new nemesis force weapon table.
And some stuff about grey knight force weps.

Table.
Grey knight: +2 S Pw: No
Justicar: +2 S Pw: Yes
Terminator: +2 S Pw: Yes
Brother captain:+2 S Pw: Yes Force weapon(normal)
Grand master: +3 S pw: Yes Force weapon(Special)

Grey knight nemesis force weapons are potent weapons made by the most skilled artificers in the imperium and only given too the ranks in the grey knight order.
The weapon can vary in shape from a sword, axe even to a hammer.
The most common is the sword and halberd.

A grey knight nemesis force weapon is used like the table above instead of the normal force weapon rules (except brother captain)

The nemesis force weapons are tuned too the psychic signal of the wearer and gets more powerful as the wielder gets more powerful.
Therefore a brother captains nemesis force weapon counts as a force weapon with +2 S and power weapon.
The psychic might of the grand master is so great that his blade can cut greater deamons in half and slice tanks in pieces as easily as one might cut grox butter, the grand master gets +3 S and his nemesis force weapon has theese special rules.

The grand masters nemesis weapon is so potent that if an enemy is wounded by it (after saves) it suffers an instant death.
If the model beeing hit is immune to instant death it instead suffers a nemesis strike.
The model immidiately suffer all his remaining wounds, and is removed immidiately as a casualty.
(Effectively, the nemesis strike removes the bonus of beeing immune too instant death)
(After a succesful psychic test, or maybe not, becouse it would be interesting)


If the 5th edition force weapon is nerfed, i would like the grand master to be able too kill something!
He will be expensive, oh yes, but very powerful!

Whaddoya think?


Last edited by Klomster on Thu May 29, 2008 7:47 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by albedoc on Mon May 19, 2008 12:51 pm

here's some of my ideas about GK... first of all: i love DH codex and its rules... so i won't change a lot, only an adjustement!

GREY KNIGHTS
- shrouding should be more useful: maybe 2D6x4? the range is 8-48 instead of 9-54, better but not too strong
- aegis like a psichic hood, because there're just a few power that target the enemy (doombolt, wind of chaos, fury of the ancient, mind...)
- because daemons now are unbreakables, the rites must be changed: first, daemons must make a test to assault them (like present days), second, daemons in cc lose they're invulnerable save: so GK can be a frightening vision to daemons not only when firing psicannons, also in cc!
- because of the new rites rule, daemonettes, plaguebearers, bloodletters and horrors (NOT nurglings and beasts, only the 4 gods' minions) can be recycled like the present day's rules (well, before the desappearing of daemon's packs)
- true grit, deep strike, fearless: OK

DH PSICHIC POWERS
- holocaust: the same, but 10 points, VP6 and the possibility to place the blast template to a terminator, not only on the brother captain!
- destroy daemon: the same, but 10 points
- hammerhand: the same, plus the same effect of a thunder hummer on a vehicle (shacken or what the new BBB will bring)
- banishment: 15 points, daemons in cc lose the fearless ability (if they faile the morale check but the DH unit don't destroy it, daemons automatically re-group)
- scourging: same, but 15 points, 24" range, VP4 (mini-HB)
- sanctuary: same, but also 20 points, non-daemons unit must test 3D6x3 to see the unit, if a GK use it, they test 2D6x3 (instead of 2D6x4)

GREY KNIGHTS PA

- grey knights less expensive: for exemple, if a marine it's 15 pts, a GK should be 22 pts:
- +1 because of the +1AC
- +1 because of the storm bolter
- +1 because of the true grit rule
- +1 because of the fearless rule
- +1 because of the nemesis weapon
- +1 because of the aegis rule
- +1 because of the shrouding rule
- justicar's price: +25 points (47), like a DA's veteran sergeant with power weapon, -5 points because there's no choice: you've to buy it with the standard equipment
- psicannon: 36", str6 VP4 heavy3 rending... mmm it's a difficult decision, it can be str6 VP3 (too poweful IMHO) or heavy4 (in that case it's not rending, and it's too weak)... it costs 15 point (like a DA's plasma gun, it's better than a heavy bolter but it's not a lascannon!)
- incinerator: 5 points (common SMs have flamers, we have INCINERATORS!)
- the entire GK squad may have melta-bombs! now they can be a danger also to tanks, but only in cc (heroic scenes!!)... the soul grinder (13/13/11) will be affected only bye the melta-bombs in cc the most of the time, so if you wanna beat it down, you've to meet it face to face!! also, having only 1 chance per GK to hit the tank, can represent the concentration of holy might in the nemesis weapon: more powerful, but also slower!

GREY KNIGHTS TERMINATORS

- mmm... chaos terminators now cost 30 points, they should cost 38 points:
- +1 because of the +1AC
- +2 because of the true grit rule (THEY MUST HAVE IT!!)
- +1 because of the fearless rule
- +2 because of the nemesis (power) weapon
- +1 because of the aegis rule
- +1 because of the shrouding rule
but also 46 points it's reasonable... they're IMHO the best daemonhunter's unit with assassins!
- TRUE GRIT, TRUE GRIT!!!
- holocaust: 10 points... in my GK experience, i've never found it useful...
- brother captain: +15 points, same profile
- incinerator: 10 points, psicannon: 20 points

GREY KNIGHTS HQ:
- Grand Master: same profile, equipment and rules, but he costs 125 points...
- NEW: Grey Knight Hero, same profile, rules and equipment as a Brother Captain, but he has 2 Wounds! cost: 75 points
- Retinue: OK

GREY KNIGHTS DREADNOUGHT:
- Elite, not Heavy Support
- same cost and options of a DA Dreadnought, +10 points because of the +1AC and aegis

GREY KNIGHTS LAND RAIDER AND CRUSADER
- same cost, options and rules

GREY KNIGHTS PURGATION SQUAD
- less expensive, like common GK
- justicar +25 points
- psicannon: 25 points, incinerator: 10 points
- no other weapon options, a purgation squad with lascannon/missile launcher and so on it's not BG...

Now i'm thinking about inquisitors, assassins, stormtroopers and orbital bombardment...

what do you think??

albedoc
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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Gioz on Mon May 19, 2008 4:15 pm

Hi all, hi Albe, let me say my comments on your interesting post.

albedoc wrote:here's some of my ideas about GK... first of all: i love DH codex and its rules... so i won't change a lot, only an adjustement!

GREY KNIGHTS
- shrouding should be more useful: maybe 2D6x4? the range is 8-48 instead of 9-54, better but not too strong
good
- aegis like a psichic hood, because there're just a few power that target the enemy (doombolt, wind of chaos, fury of the ancient, mind...)
mmh.. mmmmmmmmmmh... little overpowered, I think, but ok
- because daemons now are unbreakables, the rites must be changed: first, daemons must make a test to assault them (like present days), second, daemons in cc lose they're invulnerable save: so GK can be a frightening vision to daemons not only when firing psicannons, also in cc!
mmh good point, but I think it's better right now; such a powerful rule has to be paid in points, and eventually cc-oriented nasty daemons with rending attacks at I6 will fear more to test for assault movement than to lose a 'mighty' 5+ save... Razz
- because of the new rites rule, daemonettes, plaguebearers, bloodletters and horrors (NOT nurglings and beasts, only the 4 gods' minions) can be recycled like the present day's rules (well, before the desappearing of daemon's packs)
- true grit, deep strike, fearless: OK
ok

DH PSICHIC POWERS
- holocaust: the same, but 10 points, VP6 and the possibility to place the blast template to a terminator, not only on the brother captain!
Warning! If rumors will be confirmed, a perils-of-the warp will do an automatic wound with only inv. save allowed - save to be repeated in case of success. This, and holocaust to the termy squad, can lead to a self massacre when trying to use the power! What about a strength increase? maybe 4+the number of models in the squad (S5-10, will do S5 when used by IC) (and I think such a power still have to cost about 20 pts..)
- destroy daemon: the same, but 10 points
- hammerhand: the same, plus the same effect of a thunder hummer on a vehicle (shacken or what the new BBB will bring)
ok
- banishment: 15 points, daemons in cc lose the fearless ability (if they faile the morale check but the DH unit don't destroy it, daemons automatically re-group)
Well this will lead to bugs and misunderstanding, I think, just as necron WBB - better keep things simple. What about losing their istant death immunity while in base contact with the psyker who used this power?
- scourging: same, but 15 points, 24" range, VP4 (mini-HB)
wow will be great on the paper, but almost useless if (as I think) psycannon will have a reduced cost (and they need it!). Maybe leave it as present day but add rending, or something we lack in other weapons.. I think it will be more useful (and still dangerous, as a power may fail, be nullified, or even worst cause a peril of the warp)
- sanctuary: same, but also 20 points, non-daemons unit must test 3D6x3 to see the unit, if a GK use it, they test 2D6x3 (instead of 2D6x4)
Good! To streamline, maybe give the shroud to units that don't have it (2D6x4) or reduce to 2D6x3 units that already have it?

GREY KNIGHTS PA

- grey knights less expensive: for exemple, if a marine it's 15 pts, a GK should be 22 pts:
- +1 because of the +1AC
- +1 because of the storm bolter
- +1 because of the true grit rule
- +1 because of the fearless rule
- +1 because of the nemesis weapon
- +1 because of the aegis rule
- +1 because of the shrouding rule
- justicar's price: +25 points (47), like a DA's veteran sergeant with power weapon, -5 points because there's no choice: you've to buy it with the standard equipment
good!
- psicannon: 36", str6 VP4 heavy3 rending... mmm it's a difficult decision, it can be str6 VP3 (too poweful IMHO) or heavy4 (in that case it's not rending, and it's too weak)... it costs 15 point (like a DA's plasma gun, it's better than a heavy bolter but it's not a lascannon!)
Woo hoo! rending on a 36"-range weapon? will be better than assault cannons.. I think this is a secret dream Razz I vote for heavy4, but at 20/25 pts cost (assault cannon is 24" but psy 36", ac rending but psy ignore inv.saves, ac costs 20 and psy can be taken by IC so it has to cost a little more, I think)

- incinerator: 5 points (common SMs have flamers, we have INCINERATORS!)
incinerators are S5 VP4 Razz maybe an unified cost of 10 pts (now is 15 for termy and 20 for IC, that's too much I agree)
- the entire GK squad may have melta-bombs! now they can be a danger also to tanks, but only in cc (heroic scenes!!)... the soul grinder (13/13/11) will be affected only bye the melta-bombs in cc the most of the time, so if you wanna beat it down, you've to meet it face to face!! also, having only 1 chance per GK to hit the tank, can represent the concentration of holy might in the nemesis weapon: more powerful, but also slower!
wonderful! I don't like the idea of GKs with grenades, but I do like the idea to have NFW as meltabombs! It's just a fluffy question Very Happy
btw, maybe this idea of 'concentration of holy might' can be used in other contexts... Question


GREY KNIGHTS TERMINATORS

- mmm... chaos terminators now cost 30 points, they should cost 38 points:
- +1 because of the +1AC
- +2 because of the true grit rule (THEY MUST HAVE IT!!)
- +1 because of the fearless rule
- +2 because of the nemesis (power) weapon
- +1 because of the aegis rule
- +1 because of the shrouding rule
but also 46 points it's reasonable... they're IMHO the best daemonhunter's unit with assassins!
- TRUE GRIT, TRUE GRIT!!!
- holocaust: 10 points... in my GK experience, i've never found it useful...
- brother captain: +15 points, same profile
- incinerator: 10 points, psicannon: 20 points
Yeah, I've seen many players who dream about true grit for the termies.. will be good, sure, but I think I'd like more free psycannon bolts to all termies Razz
anyway, for 46 pts each, something more will be glad! Very Happy


GREY KNIGHTS HQ:
- Grand Master: same profile, equipment and rules, but he costs 125 points...
- NEW: Grey Knight Hero, same profile, rules and equipment as a Brother Captain, but he has 2 Wounds! cost: 75 points
- Retinue: OK
Moreover, I'd like the idea of 0-1 limit only to GM so to field 2 GK HQ in a GK-only list.

GREY KNIGHTS DREADNOUGHT:
- Elite, not Heavy Support
- same cost and options of a DA Dreadnought, +10 points because of the +1AC and aegis
w00t! actually I think that having the dreddy as HS choice it's not too bad: our codex suffers from having all interesting choices as elites Very Happy maybe the option for 2 DCCW to finally use that +1 AC that I've never used??? Razz

GREY KNIGHTS LAND RAIDER AND CRUSADER
- same cost, options and rules
..and with power-of-the-machine spirit and crusader assault cannon as 'heavy4 rending' just like other marines!

GREY KNIGHTS PURGATION SQUAD
- less expensive, like common GK
- justicar +25 points
- psicannon: 25 points, incinerator: 10 points
- no other weapon options, a purgation squad with lascannon/missile launcher and so on it's not BG...
well.. dunno Razz

Now i'm thinking about inquisitors, assassins, stormtroopers and orbital bombardment...

what do you think??

Good Albe! I hope you agree with my points Razz Other suggestions & ideas from our battle-brothers?

Gioz
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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by belissand on Mon May 19, 2008 9:05 pm

My recomendations:

Daemon terminology updated (daemons codex+ chaos SM DP+ Chaos Possessed Marines+ Defiler+ Avatar+ Necron gods, maybe even bearers of daemonic weapons, and Possessed vehicles of any sort)

I agree with the shrouding change of albedoc, not broken but not too powerfull

Aegis : either count the BC with a Psy Hood or give the unit 4+ save against Psy powers and perils of the warp, Psy hood on everyone can
be a bit overpower.

Rites: Units with "Daemon" rules get: Difficult terrain to assault, -1 ld in CC, Loose fearless in CC (so they can run and be wiped)
They can recycle as long as they are infantry, No units with models with more that 1 wound, fill a slot in the FOC.

New rule: Psy Charged attack=
Who has it?
NFW (all)
Psycannons
Psycannon bolts
Holocaust
hammerhand

Ruling: hits against units with "psyker" special rule, or that contains a Psyker or has an active Psy power
(even if you don't need to check Ld), those hits become "Rendring". Hits against a possessed vehicle (soulgrinder, defiler) or
Chaos LR with possesion upgrade gets an additional d6 for Armor Penetrating.


Explanation: WE ARE PSYKERS, each and everyone of us!! either great or not so great psykers but we are! so we have to know how to
kill psykers because they are the door for Daemonic possession. Also, the term "Psycannon" gets cooler.


Psy Powers:

Hammer hand: like albedoc is fine

Holocaust: 20 pts, str 5 ap 5 big blast auto hit (no longer +4 to hit). Ini 1 as a power fist (always last).

destroyer Daemon: as albedoc

Banishment: No idea since I placed a similar idea to albedoc on Rites, maybe when you use it, each unsaved wound counts as 2 for
resolution against units with "daemon" special rule.

Sanctuary: Same as albedoc

Scourging: Per word definition is "Punishment", since we already have enough anti troop shots I will go eldar on this one and maybe
make it like this: against units with "daemon" special rule, any failed To hit Roll in the shooting fase can be rerolled (2nd result stays)

Word of the emperor: Same with a small change, use the lowest Ld in the unit, of course Orks and Fearless will be safe, but it will
make the opponent sweat a bit.


That would be all for now, next I will focus on HQs

belissand
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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by albedoc on Tue May 20, 2008 4:46 am

thanks gioz (BTW i'm ferdrig thordresson on GWtilea if you want to talk about it)!! i agree with you, but i must say that rending on a psicannon it's not so powerful, we need anti-tank weapons!! and GKs have only two special weapons, the incinerator should be anti-troops, psicannon anti-tanks/heavy infantry/monsters IMHO!!

thanks also to belissand!

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Gioz on Tue May 20, 2008 7:59 am

Well, rending would be nice even against high armored infantry (as termy) but
- in 5th ed will be nerfed
- there are already SO many rending weapons
- it's not born to be an anti vehicle weapon Razz
So why don't give psycannon another ability? Maybe with the 'great focus of holy might of super-uber psychic stream' you proposed in your previous post. This way the psycannon can change its profile to:
36" S6 VP4 heavy3 OR 36" S8 VP2 heavy1 twin-linked
(no more assaulty psycannon, I think, or it will have too much rules while GW is streamlining all 40k codexes)

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by Klomster on Tue May 20, 2008 4:51 pm

Dreadnought should be heavy!

How else is i supposed too take my terminator squad, inquisitor with psycannon and eversor!

Psycannon same, it's good, cost less points or give a bonus when shooting daemons, +1 S or reroll to wound or something.

I missed a thing in my last post, the grand master of course have to make a psychic test too unleash the nemesis strike.

Psycannons have a recoil compensator and as such, SHOULD be assulty.

What do you think about my nemesis force weapon table?

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

Post by belissand on Tue May 20, 2008 5:51 pm

You table is very nice, but the GM don't really need the extra 1 on str, str +2 is fine and make it a true "insta kill" is what I wanted to post on my next suggestion:

That means that no protection against insta kill works againts him.

Bye bye DP/ Greater Daemons/ Avatar/ and Nidz monstruous creatures.. and adamantium mantle, if he can get that upgrade then NO POINT COST REDUCTION!!! he will be very powerfull!!!

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Re: OUR SUGGESTION FOR THE NEW DAEMONHUNTERS-GREY KNIGHTS CODEX

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