Seduced by Chaos!

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Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Rivan on Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:10 am

In an unfortunate turn of events, my son was seduced by Chaos and decided to play a CSM army!!! Nooooooooo!!!!! Razz Razz

Well, I said if he was going to play CSM, he might as well play Thousand Sons since I think they're pretty cool. Luckily, he did want to play Thousand Sons after reading Graham McNeil's HH: Thousand Sons.

Brother Ezekiel, Brother DB, I may need to ask advice on CSM lists from you guys Razz

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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by NemesisForce on Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:53 am

Well, now. When a situation arises like that it it just boils down to poor parenthood skills on your part. Laughing

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Rivan on Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:56 am

I know. I should have seen it coming. First he wanted to do a radical DH army and use daemonhosts. Then, he said forget the daemonhosts, he wants to use a full pledged daemon prince! Razz

This actually gives me a chance to help him build a Thousand Sons army since I've always wanted to work on them. Wait, I didn't say that...nooooo!!! (Turns psycannon on myself...) Razz

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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Dark Bjoern on Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:26 am

Death to the False Emperor! Muhuhuhahaaaaa.
Itīs good to know the enemy, Brother Rivan.
Ok, where to start? At first cult lists like the TSons are point intensive. Your (T)son will not have many models on the table. TSons a bit tricky to play. They are slow and purposeful. So all TSons squads should have rhinos (if you ever want to reach a mission object). The squads are lacking the options that normal CSM squads would have. Ok, all your bolters are AP3 but you have no melta, plasmaguns and so on.
Very popular are 2/9 lists (2 DP , 9 Oblits), but thatīs very boring. Hereīs one of my 1500 points lists.

HQ:
DP: wings, Mark of Tzeench, Doombolt, Gift of Chaos (your son should have some chaos spawn models in backhand)

Elite:
5 Terminators: 1 champion, 4 combi-melta, reaper autocannon, chain fist

Troops:
TSons squad: sorceror (Doombolt), 8 TSons
TSons squad: sorceror (Doombolt), 8 TSons

Heavy Support:
Land Raider
Land Raider
Defiler

Thatīs 1500 points.

The DP will act as a fire magnet. With his Gift of Chaos he could change ICs into chaos spawns (the reason to have at least 2 chaos spawn models at hand). Cause heīs a MC he could also hunt tanks down. The Terminator squad should deep strike and blow away tanks or heavy infantry. The TSons squads will ride in the LR and hold mission objects. With their 4+ inv save they are very hard-wearing. And with their AP3 bolters even marines are no problem for them. The LR could act as mobile bunkers and additionally as tank hunters. Chaos LR are cheaper then their loyal counterparts, but they lack the PotMS. Defilers are also a nice option. A mobile fire platform with a battle cannon, very popular. And other then chaos dreadnoughts they are not Crazed (Somethink that makes chaos dreads a ambivalent choise to play with).
Ahriman is too expensive. Maybe in larger games, 2000+ points.

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Brother Ezekiel on Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:33 pm

HAH I KNEW IT!He will become an excelent pawn of the Dark Gods!And you said it would come in teenage phase huh?Chaos attracts young and old,rebelious and pious,sane and insane.The only people we don't attract are people who like to eat food alot because,Nurgles dishes are a bit unhealthy,Khornes diet is made of blood,blood,blood,khorne flakes,blood,etc.,the Changer of Ways propably would change what he was eating at slightest whim and well ok maybe Slaanesh could be the one,since some people get plesure from eating foods.So there is a god for everyone!Except for holy people,who shouldn't be thinking about the Darks Gods to begin with.

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Xethik on Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:06 pm

Thousand Sons lists are pretty tough if you ask me. There is a line between wanting to be very fluffy and competitive, one I often examine when playing Grey Knights. I want a good list, but I want it to be fun and make sense. Anyways, onto Chaos Space Marines.

I personally love Ahriman and would never not use him in a fun game, so I will assume you would like to. Also, I love Defilers and Lesser Daemons. However, I find Defilers to occasionally be overpriced. Plus, with Inferno Bolters, I think you might have enough AP 3. Instead, I'll use Predators in this list.

Ahriman

Chaos Terminators x5, Chainfist, 2 Combi-meltas, Reaper Autocannon, Tzeentch Icon
Land Raider

Chaos Chosen x5, 2 Meltaguns, 2 Meltabombs
Rhino

Thousand Sons x 8, Aspiring Sorcerer (9 total), Bolt of Change, Personal Icon, Meltabomb on Sorcerer
Rhino with Daemonic Possession and Havoc Launcher

Thousand Sons x 8, Aspiring Sorcerer (9 total), Bolt of Change, Personal Icon, Meltabomb on Sorcerer
Rhino with Daemonic Possession and Havoc Launcher

Chaos Predator with Autocannon and Sponson Lascannons, Havoc Launcher
Chaos Predator with Autocannon and Sponson Lascannons, Havoc Launcher

Lesser Daemon x 7
Lesser Daemon x 7

This is a 2,000 point list, so it is probably a way too large starting point. Either way, it is a pretty basic shooting heavy list. One thing that may not be obvious is Chaos Chosen will probably outflank and try to hit your opponent with meltaguns/bombs. You don't have much melta in the list, so you need to make them count. Use them well. Bolt of Change should be great for killing enemy transports if you get close enough. AP3 will tear up Marines and equivalent, but make sure you draw them out of terrain first. Hope this helps.

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by DarkRonin on Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:50 pm

Brother Rivan, I must say that I don't find it surprising at all that your son turned towards the Changer of Ways. That novel did the same to me. Besides, look on the bright side of it, the two of you will have very interesting matches.

If you want to see a simply starting army with the T-Son theme, just check out my Pure Radicalism thread under 1000 Point lists in the army section. I may not have used it much, but it worked well against CSM, Tau/Orks (Doubles Match), and IG. I personally found it a good starting point for a themed list, but remember just as Brother Bjoern has said, they need Rhino's if they want to do anything. You lose one, and you can get a bit annoyed, but they are the hardiest troops that I have ever seen.

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Rivan on Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:50 pm

Thanks for the inputs Brothers!

As far as fluff goes, is it okay to use Noise Marines w/ TSons? My son likes their shooting capability wants to use a unit of NM all w/ sonic blasters and 1 w/ blastmaster.

Also, he wants to use a unit of chaos termies (all champions) w/ lightning claws and the mark of slaanesh. I know its rule legal but does this make sense from the fluff aspect?

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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by MJSwasey on Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:30 pm

If you want some non-fluffy suggestions, i play against some pretty competitive CSM players semi regularly and know how to make "cheese"

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Aubec le noir on Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:57 am

the good part is that very soon you'll have an opponent ... at home !! Twisted Evil
well ... finally i don't know if it's good news ... Razz Razz Wink
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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Zealadin on Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:06 am

Xethik is right on the mark imo, the lesser daemons will really give the list a bit more viability!

I'm not a fan of predators tho Razz

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Grimhack on Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:16 pm

My experience with thousand sons is that they are overpriced in an even worse way then our grey knights... Maybe it's just that I'm not used to seeing them where I play, and the only time I've seen them was on a tournament where I played against them and massacred them with grey knights.

But on to the positive note, they are certainly awesome models. They almost tempted me into the chaos army!

By the way, is your son planning on doing casual fun games or also competitive games and maybe tournaments?

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Rivan on Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:23 pm

He wants to field it in the 40K GT we're going to in Nov (NEONCON). We're trying to figure the best balance b/w fluff and competitiveness for his list.

_________________
"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Zealadin on Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:56 am

Here is something that may help:

Fritz posting a blog article helping someone with a 1K Sons Army

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Dark Bjoern on Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:28 am

Deep in the Eye of Terror lies the Planet of Sorcerers. On your search for answers you maybe could find your answers or more questions. Come, Brother Rivan, follow the path to damnation and offer your soul to the Changer of Ways.

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Grimhack on Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:07 pm

What I usually play against is 2 daemonprinces and then an army mounted in rhino's, either completely plague marines or half plague half khorne... with melta's and powerfists.

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by GMKDynamis on Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:02 am

Brother Captain Rivan, I'm sure that the formidable gods of chaos with their hollow deceptive promises and their manipulative powers has suaded your son to their side, it is most unfortunate. The only good to come out of it is playing skirmishes in your living room and have his CSM army crushed in the comforts of your home, watching him as he storms to his room as chaos hopes and dreams swell in little chaos tears running down his cheek. - Just kidding, My son is only seven and he uses my other SM army, we play different scenarios like a broken aliance, renegade chapter and fighting over artifacts. It's great, teaching, learning and strengthens the father and son bond. Good luck on your sons projects!

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Rivan on Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:27 am

GMKDynamis wrote:Brother Captain Rivan, I'm sure that the formidable gods of chaos with their hollow deceptive promises and their manipulative powers has suaded your son to their side, it is most unfortunate. The only good to come out of it is playing skirmishes in your living room and have his CSM army crushed in the comforts of your home, watching him as he storms to his room as chaos hopes and dreams swell in little chaos tears running down his cheek. - Just kidding, My son is only seven and he uses my other SM army, we play different scenarios like a broken aliance, renegade chapter and fighting over artifacts. It's great, teaching, learning and strengthens the father and son bond. Good luck on your sons projects!

Thanks Brother, it does give us a chance to really practice and prepare for the next tourney Very Happy

_________________
"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Zealadin on Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:17 am

Don't beat him too often Razz

How is his army going?

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Rivan on Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:17 am

LOL We've played 3 test games with me using a run of the mill (although balanced) SM army. He lost the first two, tweaked his army, and won the 3rd. He's going to continue to tweak his army until he finds the combination he really likes...and THEN, he'll test it against my GK tourney army Very Happy

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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Zealadin on Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:29 am

Haha could be quite the challenge!

He using Lash? I've heard it can add alot to CSM armies

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Rivan on Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:35 am

Yeah, he loves using the "lash of submission" It is quite the useful tool since he normally runs 6 oblits too Razz

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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Brother Ezekiel on Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:42 am

Ah the bane of Chaos worshippers reputation.Or maybe others just don't like our Gods since most of them forship that "righteous dead dude" on that Golden Toilet that he sits on every frickin' day until the end of his reign and the era of CHAOS GLORY!!!!Or then they are some Xeno scum that don't really worship anything or they all ways speak of Communism...er the Greater Good.And then there are those greenskin juice bafoons.Hah they can't beat us in what we do best,which is possibly everything.

But speaking seriously,its a bit of a bane in my side that everytime I speak to someone I don't know about my army,they allmost allways say or think that I'm running dual lash or atleast 1 lash,because its so much used weapon in our arsenal.But kinda like somehow every IG player is suspected to be using leafblower if he is doin' great.Except when they have beards.When a Warhammer player has a beard,he doesn't use cheese tactics or anything like that.That is if they have a real beard.Since fake beards are a completely different story.

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Rivan on Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:20 am

You lost me with the "beards" stuff Razz but seriously, I don't know why people are so afraid of lash. My son uses lash usually w/ his chaos sorcerer and I think it's a great compliment to his DP and his oblits.

...the same way I used a librarian as a support character in the latest SM list we used to play test his army. The librarian didn't kill anybody the whole game but just kept using Null Zone so my SM Captain and assault termies w/ TH/SS could bash his DP and his plague marines to pulp Razz

What I'm most wary of is "Gift of Chaos". No saves whatsoever! Now that's just wrong. Can you imagine Abaddon or Calgar, or even the Avatar of Khaine transformed into a spawn on a roll of 6 (5 or 6 for Calgar)? Razz

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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

Post by Grimhack on Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:42 pm

Yea but the chances are really small... as you said, a 5 or 6 that's 1 chance out of 3 and the range is so limited that if you don't succeed at it you probably lose the sorcerer/prince.
That's why lash is more dreaded as it has more range and also kills by good positioning.
Or warptime on princes, most people underestimate all the rerolls...

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Re: Seduced by Chaos!

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