Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

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Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by moorewilliam on Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:52 am

Need some help with tactics @ 2000 points.....

I think I have a solid list but my tactics suck. Monday I was slaughtered by Blood Angels and Nids.

HQ
Brother Captain
Holocaust
Auspex
4 Grey Knight Terminator

Elites
5 Grey Knight Terminator
Incinerator
Inquisitor
Multi-melta servitor
2 Mystics
Chimera
Extra Armor
Smoke Launchers
Callidus Assassin

Troops
5 Power Armor GK
2 Psyconnon
5 IST
2 Meltaguns
Rhino
Extra Armor
Smoke Launchers
5 IST
2 Meltaguns
Rhino
Extra Armor
Smoke Launchers
5 IST
2 Meltaguns
Rhino
Extra Armor
Smoke Launchers
5 IST
2 Meltaguns
Rhino
Extra Armor
Smoke Launchers

Heavy
Land Raider Crusader
Psycannon Bolts
Smoke Launchers
Land Raider Crusader
Psycannon Bolts
Smoke Launchers

Started with IST's in Rhinos, Inquisitor and retinue in the Chimera, PAGK in one Land Raider, and the Termies in the other Land Raider.

Against Blood Angels, I was doing pretty good except he was running Mephiston and he was slowly taking my troops out. The termies and the Assassin where doing good taking out his stuff until his reserves came in and he just picked me apart.

Against Nids, I know what I did wrong, I rushed up to the nids as fast as I could and deployed my troops. I think I should have left my troops in as long as possible and taken out as many of his troops as possible before deploying to kill his monstrous creatures.

I do not know how to use the Inquisitor or Mystics, all I used with the multi-melta. Or the smoke on the tanks.

Thought about taking out the Inquisitor, his retinue, the Chimera. Changing the HQ to a Grand Master with termies. Adding a Vindicare Assassin and removing the smoke from the rhinos.

Someone, please help....

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by Rivan on Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:49 am

Brother, your list is not bad and suggests an offensive style of play but it is lacking in certain key areas.

I would definitely switch the BC HQ for a GM. A BC just doesn't cut it as an HQ specially in high point games. While you have a lot of troop units, they are all very "soft" units, meaning they're not very resilient. Its good to have mobility w/ all those rhinos but you want your troops to survive long enough to hold objectives.

Another thing is the lack of long range anti-tank capability. All the AT weapons you have require you to get up close to be effective and that will usually put you in close-combat zone pretty fast. Since you only have 5-man termie squads, consider swapping out your LRC for LR's.

I have other suggestions in mind but my style of play is rather contrary to yours so they might not apply too well. I respect different playing styles so you just have to find the right mix of units that works for your style.
I use an all GK army and I maximize on long-range shooting (lascannons and psycannons). I avoid close-combat as long as possible and wait for the enemy to get to me (at which point they would hopefully have been whittled down to size). With our lack of numbers, attrition will outweigh our close-combat superiority.
So far, I'm batting a 61% win and a 16% loss average w/ 23% draw.

Hope this helps.



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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by Nausaden on Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:31 pm

Well, you have a very large and pretty fluffy list, but if you want it more competitive and forgiving here are my suggestions (Note that I am biased to PURE Grey Knight lists, and as such use them exclusively.):

-Drop the Inquisitor and his retinue, assassin too. Use those points to beef up your Grey Knights!

-You may only have one LRC, drop a crusader and replace it with a normal Land raider for long range anti tank/heavy support. Be sure to put a squad of Grey Knights in there; preferably with an incinerator so he can purge large groups.

-Drop an IST squad and rhino, get another squad of Grey Knights. One squad with two psycannons supporting is fine, but taking advantage of our incinerators *Str 5, Ap4, no cover OR invuln* is a must against horde and specialist armies like Eldar.

-Drop little wargears like psycannon bolts, replace them with extra armor on your Land Raiders. Way more useful then it may sound, trust me.

- Make your HQ a Grand Master, FOR SURE. The Brother Captain is sadly a joke; a single wound for our HQ? BLAH! I love Brother Captains, fluff wise too, but they seriously need additional wounds and what not. The Grandmaster is a bloody beast, with a force weapon you'll DESTROY Mephistion AND Nid hordes. I use it all the time; it can even kill ETERNAL WARRIORS. Why? Look at our codex; its wording for Force Weapons is different, and even GW replied to a letter by Brother Rivan confirming this! Use wargears like Icon of the Just, and give your Grandmaster a psycannon for extra punch, sacred incense a must if you suspect chaos at all aloof. With 4 base attacks and options to our best gear, you will not regret the 145 points into a Grand Master.

-Another note, never foot slog Termies, either deepstrike them *Give those Storm troopers teleport homers!* or give them a ride.

-For Grey Knight squads, I run 7 men each. 4 PAGK, 1 Justicar, 2 Incinerators, and likewise to the other squad but with 2 psycannons. Keeps them at a good price and great survivability, as well as looking good lore wise.

I am sure there is quite a bit I left out, but just keep playing and you'll get better. No amount of advice triumphs experience; and I am sure our other members will give you some good tips too. Our army can be tough to play, but is most rewarding and glorious looking on the field Very Happy

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by Nausaden on Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:32 pm

Gah, brother Rivan beat me to it! Razz As usual...

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by Rivan on Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:48 pm

Razz Razz No worries Brother Nausaden, you gave really good detailed points/suggestions.

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by Grimhack on Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:21 pm

I also have to point out that psycannon bolts don't work for hurricane bolters. For all the rest, I think others have mentioned the most important things.
There is just something with stormtroopers, they look cool, bring cheap meltaguns or other special weapons. But have ridiculous transports compared to other armies.

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by MJSwasey on Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:35 pm

Point #1; GK are not as competitive as the top armies. at casual and semi competitive games, sure, we're good, sometimes awesome, but with really tuned lists, the other armies just pull ahead and you have to be better to win. So don't take a bad loss to heart.

Next: You aren't playing, GK, your playing elite IG. You have 15 GK, which i have at around 500 points. And guard/other armies are better and cheaper at doing what guard does, so you can expect to be at a disadvantage.

If you played the same list as IG with GK allies, you'd have to drop the LRs, assassin, and either inquis or one squad of termies. In return all those guardsmen and tanks would get much cheaper, you could field Guards AWESOME heavy slots, and in general wreck face, as good guard lists are wont to due

If you really want to win with GK, you need decent numbers, as defensively they're only marines that can't be shot from SUPER far away. we're a very unique army in that we can float at 24" and shoot shoot shoot, or shoot shoot shoot while advancing with every squad and still be excellent in close combat. It only take ~3 gk to beat most squads in the game (obviously not super cc squads, but most squads.

regular GK should, as i said above, almost always be on foot and shooting, wether advancing and shooting or standing still and psycannoning. if you only run towards cc you loose out on all the points we pay for being so shooty, and if you just shoot you loose out on the points we pay for ws5 s6.

GKT, however, benefit immensely from combat immediately, and should almost always get the LR first ( or if you feel lucky, deep strike AWAY FROM PLASMA),

Limit yourself to 2 squads of IST and no assassins and try a game of shooting and advancing every turn (except against CC armies, wehre it's shoot and retreat till you can multi charge). Don get scared and stop in cover. You'll find the GK take out squads while shooting, and if even 1-2 gk per squad can make they can wipe out another squad or a vehicle (s6, remember).

They key to playing different is playing different. Take a totally different list and do different things, don't do little changes to your list/tactics. take an all PAGK army and even if you dont win you'll learn what works best with PAGK. Same with IST and termies. Take all footsloggers, take all vehicles. You'll lose a bunch of these, but suprisingly your next few games with regular, balanced lists will be MUCH better.

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by Nausaden on Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:25 pm

Thanks Brother Rivan; you and MJS are the real tacticians here, and most of what I have learned is from experience and you guys Very Happy

Anyways Moore, you've certainly hit the holy grail for Grey Knights Smile Best of luck!

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by MJSwasey on Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:08 pm

Don't let naus fool you, we learn from him as well. He's just more humble then the rest Razz

Oh, also, BC stern - Nowadays i prefer him to a GM because for comparable performance he's 2-3 gk cheaper and more versitile (hh for vehicles, holocaust for tanks). you definitely want more than one wound and a force weapon, but since s8 is big nowadays a ton of extra wounds aren't as great as they sound, so i go with the cheapest option that gives me what i need. and sometimes that reroll comes in SUPER handy. Gm really only makes my list when i want a psychic hood.

special weapons are your friend! incinerators and psycannons should definitely make your army.

Also, as a note, technically our teleport homers either dont work or auto mishap us, but a friendly player will let you use them as intended.

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by Nausaden on Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:36 pm

Very Happy Thank you so much Mjs; I'll have to start putting up some battle reports here.

And yes, Brother Stern can actually be a pretty sweet choice. I don't have a nickle for every time I've rolled a 1 on his 2+ save, but was saved thanks to the re-roll, or when I've needed his force weapon to insta kill and have been able to re-roll the psychic test. With 2 wounds, he's a pretty cheery guy, and you'd get the best psychic powers we have.

A few minor notes here, you'll see our GK Termies get garbage for Storm Shields; while the 5th edition Space Marine's get a 3+ invuln inside close combat and out, we only get a 4+ inside of it. It worded odd too; it can only be used against "one opponent per turn". Plus we don't get a bonus attack for it. In other words, a thunder hammer/storm shield Termie might be nice to take one of, but hammerhand on a GM or Stern would be more useful and cheaper. Our Str6 will rip apart light transports and skimmers if we catch them anyway.

Ah, and I forgot to say, you may want to consider a Grey Knight Dreadnought Smile Love those guys myself; ours are actually fairly cheap. A good set up I find is a Twin-linked Lascannon, close combat weapon, and Incinerator. He'll chomp infantry, and has significant range to help with anti-tank. Alternatively, if you just want anti heavy, replace the close combat weapon with a missile launcher. And if you want more infantry devastating, try the plasma cannon instead of lascannon. Throw smoke launchers on him, with extra armor, and his survivability will increase. Again, more fluffy sort of unit, but for a footslogger the Dread can prove a star. Remember, he's a heavy support choice (instead of the SM Elite) so you can have at max 2 Land Raiders if you include one.

Speaking of heavy support, Purgation squads are sort of neat, but so bloody expensive they aren't really worth it. I've only taken a squad of them for 4 psycannons to devastate a Daemon list and against the Ctan (Nightbringer, Deciever). Might be a neat option though, depending on your playstyle.

Just be warned, some chaos players wont want to play you, thinking that we have a lot of advantages (we have a few, sacred incense and blessed are the only that come to mind...) Fighting Chaos is clearly the more cinematic, so it can be a shame. Down at my shop, there are no chaos players who want to face me XD Its annoying really, all I get to play these days are SM, and occasionally Eldar. I miss fighting Chaos, but it looks like I've exterminated it from my region o___O

I'll just have to purge heretical guard, SM, and Xenos Razz

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by Rivan on Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:19 pm

Nausaden wrote: Down at my shop, there are no chaos players who want to face me XD Its annoying really, all I get to play these days are SM, and occasionally Eldar. I miss fighting Chaos, but it looks like I've exterminated it from my region o___O

I'll just have to purge heretical guard, SM, and Xenos Razz

Razz Razz Way to go Brother Nausaden. Since I just moved to San Diego, I still have to establish my presence at the gaming store I'll be reguarly going to. I'm sure I'll have plenty of Chaos and Xenos scum to purge Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by moorewilliam on Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:13 pm

Brothers,

I sincerely appreciate your assistance.

After taking in all the feedback, here is my plan for my next battle.

HQ
Brother-Captain Stern
Hammerhand
Holocaust
5 Grey Knight Terminator

Elites
5 Grey Knight Terminators
Incinerator

Troops
PAGK Squad
Grey Knight Justicar
6 Power Armor GK
2 Incinerator
PAGK Squad
Grey Knight Justicar
6 Power Armor GK
2 Incinerator
5 IST
2 Meltaguns
Rhino
Extra Armor
5 IST
2 Meltaguns
Rhino
Extra Armor

Heavy Support
Land Raider Crusader
Smoke Launchers
Land Raider Crusader
Smoke Launchers
Dreadnought
Twin Linked Lascannon
Incinerator
Extra Armor
Smoke Launchers

Comes out to 2000 points

Thought I would start w/ Termies in the Land Raiders and walking my Dread and PAGKs across the table shooting to bring down as many troops as possible.

Don't really know how to use the psychic powers or how to really deploy the termies.

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by Rivan on Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:41 pm

I like this list much better...

You can embark both termie units and raider-rush your opponent to get your termies in CC as well as utilize the LRC's mid-ranged weaponry.
Dread can provide long range fire support.

When you foot slog your PAGK's, you can use the IST rhinos as mobile cover too.


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"Though we face the power of hell, and death is at our side, we fear not, for the Emperor is with us through it all. If we live, we live for the Emperor. If we die, we die for the Emperor. So whether we live or die, we are the Emperor's. We are Grey Knights and this is why we came to be." --Grandmaster Rivan

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by moorewilliam on Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:14 pm

Nice - thanks

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by MJSwasey on Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:36 pm

Also, if you are every advancing a dread and a LR near each other, turn the LR sideways and hide the dread up snug against the side. The LR doesn't lose any morvement or shooting and is just as touch sidways, but covers a MUCH wider area so your opponents may not even be able to draw LOS to the dread! This lets you save smoke until you are pretty darn close and want to split the LR and dread apart. Same can be done with chimeras, with the added benefit they can always keep up!

I usually split my LR going two different places, but if your enemy is clumped and your sending them both the same way, you can create a LR wall that can hide most of your army! only move around 10 inches if you do this, so the troops running behind aren't left is the dust.

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by Nausaden on Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:41 am

Heh Very Happy In no time I am sure that the Chaos players will cringe at the thought of your Grey Knights Rivan! Go forth and represent, let your shining light burn a path through San Diego >D

Major improvement on your list Moore, MJS and Rivan's advice there is great. I only recently took full advantage of using the Land Raiders to block our small army from line of sight!

On psychic powers: The only two worth squat against anything BUT Daemons are Holocaust and Hammerhand.

Holocaust: Cheap, useful against horde armies were you get your Grand Master or Brother captain into the thick of things. It can be used in the assault phase, but not necessarily if you are in an assault. As an example, say you deep striked your Psyker; you run them and since you cant assault you use holocaust. Place the template so its touching your psykers base; it has to touch off his base. However, you don't HAVE to take the hit; if its just off him you can hit a lot of enemy's. It auto hits, and with Str 5 Guardsmen and orks will take wounds. Against more highly armored foes like Space Marines its significantly less effect. Still, pretty neat I guess.

Hammer hand: Double your BASIC strength. So, you get a str 8 guy; otherwise no difference. Your blows have no AP value, and you can force weapon stuff. Used pretty much exclusively for smashing apart tanks, as all your hits are at the rear armor *except for walkers*. Its likewise fairly cheap, and handy if you end up having to foot slog and deal with armor.

And to use psychic powers, you just roll 2 D6. If they equal or are below your leadership, it goes off *Unless you get double 1's, in which you case it goes off and you have to take a perils of the warp test*. Since our leadership for our Grandmaster is 10, chances are that your powers will go off most of the time.

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by Grimhack on Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:28 am

another thing about hammerhand, it counts as having an additional close combat weapon, something you don't have with your stormbolter on terminators.

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Re: Just can't seem to win - 2000 points

Post by Zealadin on Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:27 pm

It may, but unless you have another CCW then it doesn't matter, since it can't be used in conjunction with any other special weapon for an additional attack.

Just my 2c, but PAGK with a BC has quite good punch in a LR, I like to play them that way and they normally do pretty well with a single Incin.
I also don't really like LRC because your not filling any gaps in your forces, which is AT which a LR does do. (can split LC fire too)
If your using a squad of PAGK with Psy's I normally try and use them as defence, as they can lay down some hurt from range, but you need them in cover.

Number crunching GKT are bettter than PAGK for assaulting. On a cost basis.

The GM is also worth as much as the two extra GKT because of his initiative value, it can really stack the odds in your favour in any games vs I4 forces as he stacks a few casualties onto your opponents forces before most stuff reacts.
Worth noting however against most CC specialists he will be hitting equal or slower anyway since they are i5-6

Looks like an interesting list for sure, even if I am not a fan of ISTs!

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