Land Raider and Shrouding

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Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Tiberius on Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:22 pm

I've been wondering... Does the Shrouding apply to our Land Raiders?

I am aware of the fact that dreadnoughts do not gain anything from it, but how about Raiders? The reason I'm wondering is because it specifically says that our Raiders are crewed by Grey Knights. Should this not mean that, since our rules apply to Grey Knights, our Land Raiders get the Shrouding? The answer might be out there somewhere, but I haven't found it yet.

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by DarkRonin on Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:10 pm

It would need to have the "Grey Knights" Special Rules for it to apply to the Land Raiders. But yea, it would be nice if it did apply to our vehicles and Dreads. Especially the Dreads with their lower Armor.

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Grimhack on Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:27 pm

Lol imagine this:
"Hey bob, did I happen to see something there?"
"Nah, must've been you're imagination"
-Crunch-
"Oh it was a LAND RAIDER now everything's clear!"

That's why I don't think land raiders get shrouding. They're almost like moving buildings...

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Tiberius on Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:38 pm

Aye... Fluff-wise, it would be ridiculous.

But game-wise... O.o

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by MJSwasey on Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:04 pm

It would be nice, but it's' not raw. Oh the fun land raiders would have if they were shrouded.... Plus they'd HAVE to give it to Dreadnaughts (almost dead GK) which would be excellent as well.

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Brother Blutcher on Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:10 pm

It WOULD be nice, but LR are far tooooo big to be unvisible !!!!

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by rogueuk on Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:15 pm

they could give vechiles a shrouding like device that gives them cover saves like the device the tau use

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by NemesisForce on Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:48 am

There are some that have actually argued that a LR with GK's inside have the Shrouding rule. When the GK's inside cannot be targeted while in a vehicle how can you justify a Shrouding roll? I agree, Shrouding a vehicle as big as an LR would be ridiculous.

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Primarch on Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:48 am

Please remember people that a Land Raider is, on 28mm scale, is around 4 - 4.4m tall.

To put this in perspective, a land raider is sort of like a mobile appartment... with guns

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Klomster on Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:50 am

And that is too small, if i remember correctly, the land raider is supposed to be even bigger.

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Grimhack on Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:54 pm

and besides that, gamewise it would be evil... shooting cannons from over 36" so you get no returning fire...

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Tiberius on Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:18 pm

Shrouding = 3D6*3, so 54" is the maximum range they can see us from. But still, that's hard to roll, and it would have been utterly awesome with a shrouded raider. O.o

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Aubec le noir on Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:53 pm

for me as long as the LR don't have the GK rule it doesn't possess shrouding...
and fluffwise ... oh come on an invisible moving armed building ?? Razz
on the other hand the eldar vehicles can have holographic fields no ? ... so ... after all...
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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Tiberius on Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:01 pm

I'm going to ask a mate if I could try it in a "friendly" game against him, but it is as you say, it doesn't specifically posses the Grey Knight rule.

I'll try to implement it into some nifty rule for my homemade Apocalypse Raider. Twin-Linked Psycannons and Sponson Thunderfire Cannons anyone?

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Klomster on Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:02 pm

Nah.

But that is bcouse i don't like the thunderfire cannon.

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Tiberius on Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:08 pm

Well, Ap 5 isn't that impressive, true, but hey, 60" Str 6 Heavy 4 Blast as well as having two of them on a mobile firebase which isn't treated as an AV10 vehicle makes them pretty impressive... The tremor effect's juicy as well, and remember, they can be fired in different modes due to PotMS. Besides, they're only 25 points each.

Imagine what such a raider would do to an Ork horde or an IG gunline? Very Happy

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Klomster on Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:02 pm

Oh i don't doubt it would be destruktive.

I just hate the gun out of fluff reasons.
And it's ugly.

Sorry mate, not gonna change my opinion on this one.

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Tiberius on Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:50 pm

-Nod-

I agree that it doesn't feel like GW thought the fluff over on the TC. And looks-wise... I think it'll look better as a pair on LR sponsons, but as-is, it's not that much of a beauty, aye.

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Steel on Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:12 am

Hello Brothers, and sorry if i join the discussion so late after the last post.
This is beacuse i've had a talk with my playing mates & friends about the shrouding on LRs...
In the end all of my friend agreed that when a GK unit is embarked on the LR, the LR itself gets the "shrouding" rule.
This was decided thinking about 3 main points:
- if you use a psychic power when inside a vehicle you usually misure distances etc. from the vehicle's hull, like if it's the vehicle itself using the power; or, at least, the power apply also outside of the vehicle
- the "Shrouding" comes from intense psychic prayers that GK "sing" during the whole battle, so theyr effects should be sensible also when inside a vehicle
- If the opponent destroy the LR and it explodes, the GK unit inside recieves a "shot".

I agree that if you want to adhere to the rules exactly like they're written, the LR cannot have shrouding, but on the other hand thinking it's shrouded when there are 10 Gk inside it repeating theyr psychic prayers doesn't seems too much of a cheat in my opinion...basically because the enemy should have some difficulties to see clearly the Lr because of the "psychic-force field" created by the Gk inside...

I'm not sure if someone can agree with me on this, just wanted to point out how me and my mates found an answer to this question.

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Rivan on Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:49 pm

I can see the logic behind the argument. My question is...Is there any other psychic power in the book from other armies that we can compare the scenario to and would apply the same concept? If there is, then your argument gains even more validity.

Personally, while I would love that, I don't think it'll fly with the GW staff or even with tourny officials Sad

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Zealadin on Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:10 pm

I can see the reasoning, as you said the Shrouding is derived from their faith in the emperor, plus probably from their ornate runed armour and purity seals.
A GK LR would be crewed by GK's, covered in similar symbols (well if you have the forgeworld doors) and could definately receive the benefit.
In an actual game tho.... hard to argue

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Steel on Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:16 pm

yes as both of you pointed, chances are very small, if none, that this kind of "interpretation" will apply in a tournament or any official game.
My aim was only to describe how me and my mates reached an agreement upon this for our domestic games Very Happy

As for other's powers we can compare to, i'll have a look around but i doubt i'll find anything...
The only thing that comes into my mind are the Ork's bikes that have a nice 4+ cover save for theyr exaust smokes, even when they are moving... i mean, if the cover save is due to the smoke, why should it apply when moving? sounds pretty much like the normal smoke lunchers lol (and it lasts the whole game in addition).
So as our Shrouding is, in my opinion, less powerful then this... i think it's a nice deal to let our LR use shrouding when they have a squad embarked, at least for house play.

Oh well, thanks as usual for the share of ideas, cya around

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by fa11en on Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:42 am

Forgive the thread necromancy, but I wanted to gather some of your expert opinions. I will be attending the upcoming 40k Throne of Skulls tournament later this month and GW specified that Daemonhunter armies must use the PDF version of the rules, rather than the orignial book.

Historically it was very clear which Grey Knight units had the special rules applied to them, however in their infinite wisdom GW dropped this definition from the PDF. While probably an oversight on their part it does now re-open the debate on shrouding.

No where in the PDF codex does it specifiy which units have the grey knight special rules, but all grey knight units are prefixed accordingly in their title, including the GKLR, GKLRC and GKD. Their is also a clear distinction rules wise between GKLR and normal LR, one is FAQ'd to have POTMS and one isn't.

On the summary page, where the details of the 'GREY KNIGHT SPECIAL RULES' are listed it specifies that 'The Shrouding' rule applies to 'Each enemy unit firing at a Grey Knights unit'. This wording is different in definition to subsequent rules, such as 'Rites of Exorcism', which references 'Daemons charging Grey Knights' rather than a Grey Knights unit.

While I fully realise this is a VERY beardy and a very narrow RAW interpretation, but it seems to me that there is now a valid argument to apply shrouding to all Grey Knight units and not just the infantry.

What do you think?

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Aubec le noir on Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:50 am

in choosing the PDF instead of the real codex i think that the tourney organizers are confectioning the rope to be hanged on Evil or Very Mad
my only advice is : ask them what interpretation they'll use and do with it.
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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

Post by Rivan on Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:47 am

Aubec le noir wrote:in choosing the PDF instead of the real codex i think that the tourney organizers are confectioning the rope to be hanged on Evil or Very Mad
my only advice is : ask them what interpretation they'll use and do with it.
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I agree. What makes is confusing is they took out the "terminology" section that describes what "Grey Knight" refers to. Without it, a GKLR and GK dread IS a GK unit as far as I'm concerned. Consulting w/ the organizers would still be your safest course of action.

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Re: Land Raider and Shrouding

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