Do GK Have Specialists?

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Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Devon M on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:11 pm

Does the GK chapter have Chaplains, Librarians, Techmarines or Apothecaries?
In the novel Grey Knights there is a Chaplain, but the book isn't really canon, and the codex doesn't have any of them in it. But what happens when a GK dies on the battle field, how do they get the gene seed? And what about armor repairs on battle field or recording the chapters history?

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Nausaden on Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:59 pm

Whoa boy, you hit the jackpot Brother Devon.

To answer your first question, as the Grey Knights are "not just another SM chapter" we do NOT have any of those. Ben Counters books are largely considered non-cannon in some aspects; but I personally believe that the Grey Knights do have a Chaplain/form of Chaplain in order to teach the new initiates, keep track of the histories of the Grey Knights, and so on.

When a Grey Knight dies in battle they cut into his neck and take the geneseed to be given to a new initiate, their bodies and armor are reclaimed and taken to their fortress monastery on Titan. There, the Grey Knights body is taken deep into the tombs, to rest. His squad mates accompany this and do a prayer. Then, the armor is consecrated and is to be given to a new Grey Knight.

As for his history, I'd imagine it is recorded and stored somewhere, if not with the fallen Grey Knight.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Devon M on Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:08 pm

So it seems you are backing up the part of the Grey Knights that says that they simply "cut" it out of the fallen GK. How can this be done, when generally the gene seed needs to be put in that special container until it is returned to the chapter.
I realize that GK aren't "just another SM chapter," but no chapter is. The templars are special, the dark angels are special. But GK are a space marine chapter, though one that has been taken under the wing of the ordo. I would assume that they still have structure fairly similar to that of any other chapter. Even the wolves who don't follow the codex astartes have rune priest and such.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Aeddon on Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:11 pm

I personally think of Grey Knights functioning very similar to modern day Green Berets where each team member has a specific job but is fully capable of completing any of his battle brothers' jobs. Given the small size of the squads it would make more sense for each member to be able to extract the geneseed from a fallen brother, along with any other duties that an apothecary might have to perform. As far as librarians go, each member of the Grey Knights chapter is a psyker in some sense, some are simply more developed than others. I don't think they have specific librarians, per say, they have brother-captains and grand masters who are prominent psykers.

Just my two cents...

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Rivan on Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:27 pm

I think Brother Aeddon put it very well. Since GKs reputedly have the most advanced training (surpassing even SM) as well as the most advanced technology, it is not surprising that they would know how to extract the gene-seed as well as have the vials required to store them.

As for chaplains, what would they need a chaplain for? To remind them of their faith and dedication? All GKs are already fearless and utterly devout. REGULAR SM need a chaplain attached to their squad to become fearless, or else they sometimes do fall back Very Happy

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Devon M on Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:10 pm

If extracting the gene seed is as simple as cutting it out with a blade and then sticking it in a vial, why would there even be apothecaries on the field? Apothecaries have a complex tool they use, plus the giant thing on their back.
Chaplains also serve to rally troops and librarians record the chapters history.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Nausaden on Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:22 pm

To put it a bit more simply Brother Devon, "Grey Knights are all that and a bag of chips".

They are so elite in that they can perform all the tasks that the specified units *Such as Apothecaries, Chaplains, and Libariens* and typically do an equal if not better job.

An example being it stated somewhere in our codex that Grey Knights all have about the same psyker strength as a SM Libarien, albeit they may not be able to manifest it as a weapon until around Justicar->Terminator rank. Its mostly used as a shield against corruption and Daemons.

Perhaps the wording "cutting out" is not the best choice on my part, but I assume they carry tools capable of taking it and transporting it safely.

I still think that their might be a Chaplain for teaching the histories and that jazz, but I doubt there would be a Libarien.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Rivan on Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:25 pm

I didn't say that extracting the gene seed was simple. I merely deduced that all the GKs have the training to do it properly. Given that they are very few to begin with, it makes sense that they would all be trained how to do it. Again, just like a Green Beret or Navy SEAL team.

And GKs don't really need to rally, because they will never fall back or fail morale so they don't need a chaplain "in the field" per se. Although a Chaplain back in Titan to train the new recruits does make sense Very Happy

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by NemesisForce on Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:35 pm

I agree about GK's not really needing Librarians. As for Chaplains I see them as keeping history and possibly being 'cleansers' of a sort helping to wash away the Daemon-stink after every battle. Of course I don't mean cleansing in the scrubbing sense but a spiritual one. I'm sure there would be Apothecaries and definitely Tech Priests but with the multitude of options we have already (=I='s, Daemonhosts, Assassins, etc.) they were just left out for space reasons in the codex. All we can do is speculate and form our own opinions.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Devon M on Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:39 pm

We all know that GK are a step above SM when it comes to fighting daemons and the like, but if they can be taught to cut out gene seed and such, then how come other SM aren't? Someone will say that GK are just better, and they are when it comes to daemons and chaos, even general combat, but things like extracting gene seed could just as easily be done by a normal SM as by a GK. It would probably be easier to cut it out with a small dagger than with a giant halberd.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Rivan on Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:42 pm

Brother Devon, again you are assuming they don't have any other tools/paraphernalia on their person other than what you see on the models. I'm sure they belt pouches and other equipment they use in the field.

I believe the SM models don't have daggers on them either so its probably just as hard to cut out the gene seed with a chainsword or power sword Very Happy

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Devon M on Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:28 pm

I'm not just going off the model. Apothecaries have those giant things on their hand to extract the gene seed, and then that giant tank to store them. Its flat out not practical to have all that stuff, and then charge into close combat.

And a space marine with a chainsword is capable of the same finesse as a surgeon with a scalpel. They just choose not to show it as they hack away at a tide of orks lol.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Rivan on Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:46 pm

True. If my memory serves me right, Alaric had small containers he used to store his fallen comrades' gene seed. Of course, we can't really rely on Ben Counter's books as canon but we have very little else Razz

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"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." --Sun Tzu (from ancient Earth)

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Aubec le noir on Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:48 am

first i think GK are not another SM chapter : because the don't have a primarch, because their origin is mysterious, because they pass the "normal" initiation of SM AND 666 ordeals that could kill any SM, because they are all Psykers and fearless...

though I think that some kind of Chaplain/librarian exist in Titan for the cleansing rituals and for the preservation of the deads and of the history of the chapter... but that's my speculations, because so few is known about this chapter and its organisation (like : are they all in Titan or does it exist other GK fortress elsewhere ... which i strongly believe)

and for the genes don't forget one thing brother Devon : the intense use by GK of teleportation and of stasis chambers (one of the most important technologic artifacts of this chapter to secure dangerous artifacts, persons and why not fallen brother's bodies)

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Devon M on Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:30 am

most SM chapters don't have a primarch. Only the original 20/18 legions did.
Also there are some things known about the founding. It was during the Second Founding, and most likely was from the gene seed of the Emperor or... SPOILER ALERT for Flight of the Eisenstein







was from those who escaped on the Eisenstein.

While the Grey Knights are a special SM chapter, that is what they are, a sm chapter.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Aubec le noir on Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:04 am

saying that GK are another SM chapter is the same that saying that custodes are only SM... I'm sorry but i strongly disagree with you
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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Devon M on Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:28 am

The custodus were created to NOT be SM, but to be the emperor's personal body guard.
Check out the Index Astartes article. It states that they are unique among the adeptus astartes, If they weren't a SM chapter, then why are they called the 666th Chapter?

The Exodus chapter undergoes special training, making them uncorruptable against daemons. Does that mean they aren't SM?
Grey Knights are a highly specialized Space Marine chapter who works along side the Ordo Malleus to combat daemonic threats, within the Imperium and without.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Aeddon on Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:30 am

I do not believe that it was Brother Devon's intent to say that they are just another space marine chapter but that they are in fact, a space marine chapter and must be fully self-sufficient just as every space marine chapter is. That would include the need for personnel to perform the same duties as a chaplain, librarian and apothecary would in a normal space marine chapter.

The question must be "If there is no chaplain, librarian or apothecary than who trains the new initiates? Who maintains the records of the chapter? Who provides medical services for the chapter and for squads deployed abroad?" In my opinion there would be circumstances where the Inquisitorial unit that the squad is attached to would perform some of the necessary duties that a chaplain, librarian or apothecary would normally do. But at the same time we see in Ben Counters books (if you accept this as truth or not is up to each individual) when the squad performs their own rites when in the field and this is how I believe, they normally act once deployed.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Devon M on Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:01 pm

Aeddon thank you for clarifing that. I don't mean they are just another vanilla SM chapter, but they are a SM chapter.
I suppose it is possible that the Inquisitor and retinue could help with some things. But what about when they are on their own, and it is just a GK squad operating without Inquisitors?
When the GK were founded there was so much turmoil as an aftermath of the heresy, that a new SM force that didn't adhere somewhat to the codex, I would think, would be somewhat out of the question.
While they differ in some ways, I think it would be crucial that they have many of the same positions as a normal SM chapter.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Grimhack on Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:37 pm

Devon M wrote:I suppose it is possible that the Inquisitor and retinue could help with some things.
The inquisitors and retinues themselves don't really do much in the workings of the Grey knights in my opinion.
So if you want to see what the knights do then, from the fluff, I think the justicar has to fulfil the chaplains role for his squad.
If you look at the artwork on pg 63 of the codex, I think he also buries his fallen brothers together with the squad while a servoskull (or other servitors for that matter) record everything and I believe they also maintain the libraries.
This would already replace the need for librarians and chaplains. And they probably have their workers for the medical facilities. What they would do when away? Well I think their crusers are well equipped and if not, they will probably find an inquisitorial fortress in or near the system they have to work.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by DarkRonin on Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:40 pm

To go off of what Ben Counter did in his novel, Grey Knights, there is both a Chaplain, and an Apothecary. But both only appear within the fortress on Titan. And of course as we all know already, they are in all honesty just Space Marines. With that said, it leads me to my first point.

Now, on page 41 of the Space Marine Codex, within section dedicated to the Grey Knights, it opens up a bit more speculation as to their own origins, where they were actually created by the Emperor in secret during the Great Crusade.

Anyway, I digress, as far as the topic of Gene Seed removal in the field is concerned. Each Grey Knight squad is it's own autonomous unit, taking care of itself when it really is on its own without much aid. So of course they should be trained in all manners of being self sufficient when forced to act on its own without the rest of the Battle Force (Codex: Daemonhunters 7).

Of course this is just pure speculation on my part, but it very nature of being forced to act independently from time to time due to the scale of the galaxy and the numbers of the Grey Knights (Approximately 3000 give or take upon the death of a few Brothers) does give ample reason to believe that each and every Brother is prepared to perform their duty when need be.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Devon M on Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:48 pm

What is the point of having a chaplain and apothecary in the chapter and not have them fight? Wouldn't you just have a member of the ecclusiarchy see over the spiritual well being and then have super well trained doctors oversee the medical stuff? In the novel the apothecary was to old to fight so he served as a medic, which makes sense.
Could that be the answer?
That when a GK gets to old/frail, as a result of time and injuries, to fight that they become chaplains and apothecaries?

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by DarkRonin on Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:19 pm

Well if we do go by the novels, then we can assume that the Grey Knights are too good for normal doctors. Or that only the physiology of a Space Marine is understood to a much higher degree by a fellow Space Marine. A good question would be the following, who is responsible for the process of turning a normal man into a Space Marine? Though this does seem to leans towards Apothecaries who are of course well-versed in battlefield surgery, advanced surgery, cybernetics, and most of all bio-engineering. So a group of Grey Knight Apothecaries who are responsible for the creation of the Grey Knights isn't so far fetched if we follow this train of thought. Going with this, we can then assume that because of this, and the nature of the chapter at hand, they would be centralized on Titan where they can do the most for their brothers.

As for Chaplains, they do seem a bit redundant in which the faith of the Grey Knights is without peer. Not too sure of this myself, but all I can really go upon is that the duties of the Chaplain is to maintain the faith of the Chapter. His role would be something akin to a priest of any faith, which is interesting, but once again, we can only go on thinking that only a Space Marine would really understand another Space Marine, and a priest of the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't even being to be able to understand the inner workings of a Space Marine, like what makes him tick.

For the Knights who become too old, they keep on fighting the daemonic, too old is concept that is tough to approach with any and all Space Marines, this is even harder even grasp due to the various authors. Some old is more then 400 or even higher then that. As for a result of injuries, if they are crippled in such a way, but are still alive, then the Dreadnought would be the way that they'd go to further serving the Emperor. Of course the lore of the Grey Knights state that all Grey Knights simply wish to sleep beneath the surface of Titan with their Brothers. The paths of both Apothecaries and Chaplains are an entirely different branch and set of skills, such paths instead of being able to fight on would be a tough choice for any Knight.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Rivan on Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Brothers, you also have to keep in mind that the absence of apothecaries and chaplains in our force organization list can be due to game balance also. While this throws wrenches in the fluff and background, game balance probably takes priority since that's what drives the game and product sales. Not saying that this is the ONLY reason but I'm sure it factors in too.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

Post by Devon M on Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:38 pm

Rivan, I agree with that statement.
I would say that fluff wise, the "GK chapter" is very similar to other SM chapters in that it has all the usual specialists. But in terms of the game, maybe they thought it would be to powerful. Like having a black templar chaplain leading a squad of GKs would be crazy.
For this reason, I think I am going to model my BC and such who are leading termie squads to be librarians and chaplains.

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Re: Do GK Have Specialists?

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