Re: WHAT NEEDS UPDATING ON THE SITE BROTHERS OR SORTING OUT

[Rivan]

I agree as well, it would definitely make it easier to navigate. I don't always catch the new threads because I have to look in many different places

[Coyote]

I don't play epic so maybe this is way off base, but I'm a little surprised there isn't a GK epic section on this forum.

[MJSwasey]

i didn't read through the whole thread so I don't know if this was suggested, but:

Advanced tau tactica has an awesome system for compiling knowledge. It's one of the reasons they are constantly referenced by other sites as one of THE best army specific sites/resources. They have the anybody can post anything sections like us (ok a little more strict) but then they have some locked forums. These are for articles and tacticas. People submit articles with the title Article Submission: Title in a regular forum and then write up a nice little tactic on a way to use a squad, or kit it out, or the math on this equipment versus that, etc. just one little aspect of the game, from wargear to the best unit combinations. This article includes facts, math analysis, or some reasonable background besides pure theory and opinions, as well as some common opinions etc. people review this and suggest changes or debate viewpoints, when it's generally accepted to be as good as it gets, then a moderator copies the ammending article into the locked forum. This means you end up with a locked forum that can only be read, and has no 'junk' posts, just Articles that people can read for good tactics and unit summaries and etc. It's a awesome resource and much easier then searching through a million posts and trying to piece together all the info. Plus, people tend to be more thoughtful and realistic when writing an article verus just talking about "no that sucks" Why? "it just does, it just never does well". you can then go to the article and see oh, well this is what that unit is meant for, heres the math on what it should do, heres why it doesn't do well there.

I suggest spending 20 minutes getting familiar with Advanced tau tacticas forums. you can see how awesome these resources would be

[Nausaden]

Very nicely put brother MJS; I second this idea! More specific threads and the like would be awesome. Or even just "Versus" threads. Like tips on crushing particular armies. Versus Daemons for instance, or versus orks. Something that will be an all around helpful guide to what to best equip/use units to have an edge against armies/specific units.

[Zealadin]

I see the advantages of that kind of system but personally hate any kind of forum which uses the mathematical basis for all the theory crafting because you end up with a very elitest and snobish attitude towards anyone with different views (in several past experiences at least). It also is often irrelevant in a game like 40k where everything is situational and realistically 'facts' have to be very closely defined to be accurate (and the closer the definition the more definitions you need to properly cover a subject). Its basically a tool for crafting lists against specific opponents, which to me is just bad sportsmanship when it gets past changing a squad here or an upgrade/weapon there.

Maths and statistics are a part of the game, but so is chance and other variables. There seems to be a growing need to classify what is 'best' and unfortunately what people don't seem to realise is that individual playstyles and skillsets have very different results. It also leads to the HORRIBLE arguement of "yea that guy does well with that BAD list, but imagine with a good list". Every time I hear this I want to just bang my head against a hard object to knock these peoples stupid comments out of my memory. Often these are the same people who can't do half as well as that person with their 'bad list', and yet feel due to a basic understanding of maths that they can make judgement calls. Its worse than pure opinion and theory.

This article includes facts, math analysis, or some reasonable background besides pure theory and opinions, as well as some common opinions etc.

I hate to use an opinion here but mine is that there is no better benefit of this kind of system, its for those into min/maxing (ie winning at all costs). It certainly adds another perspective, but in a game like 40k experience is generally worth more than the use of a calculator because it is more likely to encompass all variables, and the outliers rather than just a vague medium.

I've also never heard of the any references to the forum you mentioned nor have seen anything sourced from there, but I generally play for fun not to win, and if I need to work out those kind of statistics I get out a calculator and do it myself, despite knowing that the figures I get will be effected by far more variables than I can actually take into account.

I'll definately take a look at that forum and I would love to see a bit more structure to our forum with the benefit of that kind of info, but I just don't want to see it take over which it always seems to in the end.

Maybe we could get one of the admin to respond so we can see about cleaning up the forum and some of the unneeded levels/sections and adding some new sections people would like to see?

**Edit: Sorry don't want to seem like I'm jumping down your throat about the system you mentioned, but in the past I've seen alot of bad things come from encouraging it especially among friendly and non totally competitive driven forums and communities, just not trying to seem overly aggressive with my response**

[Nausaden]

*Nods head* Wow Brother Zealadin, very wise words that truly comes from experience. I never even saw it that way, you've made me see clearer. The last thing I want is this community to become snobbish and elite-sih that it ruins what makes it so great.

Perhaps trying to classify things is irreverent, at least very specific things. I'd still sort of like some kind of thread for specific units, strengths and weaknesses *Say, Brother Captain Stern tactics? Etc.*

Thank you once again for your input Brother Zealadin, it is always very inciteful.

[Zealadin]

I definately think it can be useful, and one of my friends and I always laugh because he concentrates on the maths (his strong point) while I concentrate on models I like the look of (god I love a sweet looking army) but we have been friends for a very long time so its not an issue. Its just hard on forums where often people under an alias feel free to really abuse the privilege of not being accountable for what they say.
I certainly wouldn't complain if we saw some maths and statistics here but I wouldn't want it to become the basis of all arguements.

[Nausaden]

Indeed, I'm horrid when it comes to math anyway The pretty models and art draw me in. Good points; I'd hate if this place became about arguing like the majority of other forums:P

[MJSwasey]

Perhaps I didn't phrase what i meant right..... Please take a look over there at advanced tau tactica as i'm apparently not able to describe it correctly.

Basically they don't set down alot of arguements, they basically create guides for how to effectively use units different ways. A great example is markerlights, a very confusing tau weapon. it doesn't cause wounds, but can be used to launch a missle, increase another units BS when firing at the same target, or decrease cover saves. The site does some math to help people discover the mathemtical best combinations of increasing BS vs decrease saves (1 and 1, 2 and 0, etc), situations where using the bs increaser worked well and situations where the missle did, as well as provide tips for what kind of forces they work really well in and situations where they shine/don't shine.

so it's more of a tactica on different situations they might be in, new ways to use them you haven't thought of, the benefits and disadvantages of units, what units that unit works really well with, etc If your looking for something to hit tough units/swarms/vehicles these are what mathmatically works pretty well, and heres some experiences with that.

it also encourages analysis of each unit in the codex in different situations, so it steers AWAY from "this unit is the best, never take that when you could take this". Instead it recognizes while some units usually fare better then others in most situations, there are situations or lists where this unit everyone hates on MAY be really good!

Also i didn't mean purely churn out the math and just say this unit is better. but some people never take units because they are "ineffective" in their minds. A nice little proof that they do cause a comparable number of wounds in certain situations makes people more likely to try it.

Anyways, if your interested in discussing this idea, for better or worse, i suggest checking out the tau site first before coming back with an opinion pro or con, as i'm sure people can take what I'm saying many ways, and i'm not always the most clear person.

[Snowfire]

Ok, so after reading the last two pages (the most recent requests), it basically boils down to this:

1) The number of subforums needs to be decreased dramatically. I'll have a look around the site and make a list of what could be removed with no major damage to the site. I'll post it here so you can all comment on what should stay or go.

2) A Locked Thread or Forum that is dedicated to explaining how different units work in different situations. Solid tactical advice. Not a step by step this-is-how-you-must-play-as-Grey-Knights list, but ideas you can add to your current style of play.

[Snowfire]

Ok, so here is my notes for cleaning up the site a bit:

Community: Keep everything, but clean out (delete) some of the old/non-relevant threads 9-12 months or older.

40k General Discussion: Remove the Puritan GK discussion. Move all active/most informative threads from here to the main discussion forum. Clean out (delete) some of the old/non-relevant threads 9-12 months or older.

Sector Command: Remove the Army List sub forum, and the Point List sub forums, move relevent threads to where all other army lists are. Clean out (delete) some of the old/non-relevant threads 9-12 months or older.

Tactica: Remove Combat Patrol sub forum. Shift all relevant threads to one forum. Clean out (delete) some of the old/non-relevant threads 9-12 months or older.

Archives/Black Library: Clean out (delete) some of the old/non-relevant threads 9-12 months or older.

Painting: Clean out (delete) some of the old/non-relevant threads 9-12 months or older.

Chronicles of Grey Knight Forum: Sorry to say this but remove. It was a great idea, but nothing actually eventuated from it. Maybe keep it and use it for the role playing games as well?

Dawn Of War: Clean out (delete) some of the old/non-relevant threads 9-12 months or older.

Trade: Remove. Does this actually get used as all?

Links: Remove sub forum. Clean out (delete) some of the old/non-relevant threads 9-12 months or older.

[Inquisitor Lord]

i have been having a re plan brothers hence the quite me i read every post on the site and all comments are valid wrong or right thank for the Patience brothers