So... any ideas about who we really are?

Yes, I do have to agree with the recent arguments put forwards. Yes it is better that we do not know for sure the origins of the Grey Knights. But we can still have a bash at figuring it out.

Also, I've read over this thread afew times, and those that have been making very good points and arguments that seem well educated on the background of the Grey Knights shall be put forward to be Archivsts.

I know this is a long post but please read it all before commenting, but I have put a quick summary of my thoughts in the second to last paragraph

Ok let’s think logically:

Firstley a new Chapter is decided to be founded.

Secondly the geneseed is chosen

We do not know when the GKs were founded but I would guess the Emperor founded them when he first learned of chaos as I do not know for sure when that was the latest I can assume he knew of Chaos is when Garro returns, he may have known about it before that date but if not he sure did after, but seeing as he was back at Terra doing secret stuff while Horus went around doing the dirty work he could have discovered Chaos then but his first experience of the Warp and therefore Chaos is the scattering of the Primarchs and he is a psyker and no way they wouldn't have been drawn to him as a moth to a flame therefore he would have been well aquinted with the perils of the warp. Also the whole warp travel/warp storm thing and the need for a Geller field. So it could be argued he knew of Chaos way before Garro and therefore started building GKs before the whole heresy.

So we can say is that the Emperor was around and alive (not in the Golden Throne) and therefore would have ordered the founding himself. Again while at Terra when Horus was leading the crusade he could have been doing this.

So what we have so far is either the GKs were made before Garros arrival and therefore he and his friends could not have created GKs or shortly after and they could be used.

Most likely I feel was that the Emperor was working on this in part while Horus was dealing with the crusade and therefore Garro had nothing to do with founding of the Grey Knights but just to make sure we have smashed the idea that Garro founded the GKs the line about them being needed for their inquisitive natures is too obvious a reference not to be taken seriously that they founded the inquisition. Any other word could have been used but inquisitive was used sorry but that in my book that is very solid but not fact. Also what can discredit that it was before Garro and the others is the fact there is no mention of the Grey Knights at the siege of Terra, obvious reason is they were not ready yet.

So now what do we have the Emperor decided to create a the new chapter at or before Garro’s arrival at Terra as it is with in this period he would have discovered the Warp Chaos and all its Daemons. But most likely decided after Garro’s arrival due to the Grey Knights not being reported in the Siege of Terra and it would make sense that that the inquisition and Ordo Malleus and GK set up at the same time.


Now on to Geneseed.

Now before I continue I must go onto about the original geneseed for a bit. What we need to decide is the DNA used in the original Primarchs the same for each of them and was it their experiences as children on the planets they crashed that moulded them in personality and characteristic or was the DNA used slightly different for each and this would have led them to have different characteristics from the start. Also were the created from scratch or were they born by a women and then altered like a Space Marine, if so did they have different mothers or the same.

I think the assumed thinking is that they were created from scratch from various strands of the Emperors DNA giving them their own individuality. What ever the method we can assume that each primarch even if their were no outside influences and all were treated the same would have been different, why because if they were not the Emperor would not have used their DNA as the basis for each chapter but just used his own, what would be the point in using theirs if he could get the same result using his own.

So we now know that each primarchs DNA was different, whether it is by having a different bit of Emperor DNA each and they were created from scratch or that their own DNA blended with whatever the Emperor gave them each be it different or same for each.


Anyway what we have is an Emperor with his original DNA and 20 new DNAs whether this is by mixing with human or splicing his own up. Now he used the 20 new DNAs to create the founding legions. Now this is where the whole timing thing is critical, as I believe the Grey Knights formed close to Garro’s return due to them not being mentioned ever before that date but after that date Emperor new of the dangers of Chaos to his marines he would have realised that the 20 new DNAs had a flaw whther it be in the make up of the DNA or in the fact that they gave the Marines a father figure other than himself. With this in mind and wanting to create a Chapter that would not falter he would not use any of 20 new primarch DNAs. This leaves him with the original DNA he used to either blend with Primarchs or which he split up and gave a little bit of each to the Primarchs. So the emperor with has given the Grey Knights DNA that is either not split or that has not been blended with anything else before entering a human, it is therefore in both cases the DNA from the Emperor unspoilt and unchanged.

To summarise, GKs were founded around Garro arrival to Terra. Garro and others could have been used to create Inquisition and the Ordos and even train the first Grey Knights, but their DNA/Geneseed not used to create the GKs. The DNA used was created from the Emperor directly. I think he created the Primarchs from scratch using his parts of his DNA as he did not want to clone himself. For the Grey Knights I think he used his DNA as a whole rather than parts but this was place into humans which of course created a lesser quality due to the human part than the primarchs but a greater quality than a Space Marine who has a section of the emperor plus the human part.

Although this is all speculation and we do not have enough FACT to go on everything we know about the GKs is based on guess work all be it educated guesses. It could be that they were created in any number of ways including they are a lost primarchs chapter or the high lords made them and created some cocktail geneseed from all geneseeds or Garro and the others had their geneseeds used in a cocktail or they use whatever geneseed they can get their hands on, or that they are just space marines and it is only their training and equipment which makes them stand out from other Space Marines and so on, ultimately it is up to you to believe in what you want but I have tried to look at the most logical steps.

Interesteing points there Spartan. I think the emperors DNA part could get a little confusing as he also created the custodes from his own gene-stock.The custodes are supposedly the equivilent of about 10 space marines where the Grey Knights are the equivilent of probably 2.

I'd say a grey knight should be 5, becouse they are more awesome than 2.

Anyway, you seem to have a good idea on how the emperor might have thought, but i would guess that mr E knew a bit about the perils of the warp, not much.

That's why he was reckless and didn't respect it becouse he didn't know all powers behind it.

But i'd guess that the emperor had this Abel geneseed, original stuff, very demanding of your body extracting this stuff if you're not equipped with progenoid glands, (basically, i would guess it's spinal cord fluid, and some other interesting stuff in this) so he couldn't make a whole lot of dudes with this stuff so he made 2 things.

1) Custodes, they don't seem that numerous so they would probably get Abel labelled geneseed.

2) Take custodes geneseed and make 20 primarchs. Maybe, i'm just speculating.
The initial custodes should have some slight varietes in their geneseed that was overcompensated some how when installed into a new, i'd say tube growed superhumans.

I'd guess that the Emperor took from qualities he found in the initial Custodes, one might have had great fighting prowess, so we combine that with this subject and see the results.

Oh, Angron..... Not what i expected, let's try again.

Ah, my calm, intelligent custode.

Mix mix mix, oh, a Sanguinious, (i think of sanguinious this way, correct me if wrong)

And so on, until he got 20 differing subjects, full of spinal stuff to create lots of marines.

"And they shall know no fear"

Ok, now we only have little custode timmy left.

Oh, we were attacked by Horus, Why? I dunno, but he aint happy and he is changed, and has deamons with him.......... not a good day. *Sigh*

BASH!!! Horus dead and emperor falls, and his calm intelligent son killed for no reason, both...... *Cry*

Then little timmy returns and tells Mr E that he killed 18 greater deamons more than his brethren end Mr E like.

-Yo, wazzup Timmy? Why'z you so good a slappin da' deamon ass!

-Well, um, i just told them how you were right and stuff and then suddently my head started to shine and stuff, really weird.

(Completely not serious sentence but Mr E finds out that one custode shows good deamon killing qualities)

Mr E see that deamons will probably be a litteral pain in the ass for the next...... very long time.

So Mr E like.

-WOW, I got awesome idea lads!!!! Let's make a new kind of marine.

With nice shiny armour and everybody was like YAY.

And the emperor made awesome silver armoured (initially black though) dudes to slap deamon ass.

And there was much rejoice, well, like 3 people knew abou this so they were probably happy....ish.

If you forget the fact that the whole imperium is all fucked up and that half the primarchs are dead or very lost.

Or wait, ALL primarchs dead or very lost.

Not serious, but try to find my smart ideas, i am just bored and try to comicify most stuff i write.

Lol Klom.

The emperor says:

-'OK, kids, we need a force to fight against chaos, some guys who cannot be corrupted'...

and GW says: 'OK, kids, The Emperor wants a force able to fight chaos, but, since we love chaos, we will make them only to fight demons'...

at least, they create awesome figures...

Yes, hope if gw makes a new release of deamonhunters it doesn't change the look of the minis, add a grand master with some weapon choices and add some more inquisitors.

The looks are awesome, but i hope they don't screw up some stupid rules or change some thing so you can't have more than one squad of grey knights and stuff.

That would be bad.

If it does come to that, I'll only fight friendlies with the current rules. (It's what I'll have to do anyway with my Legion of the Damned)

The eisenstein survivors couldnt become grey knights since not one single one of them was a psycher. Remember, GKs are in a sense all librarians. The GK books by counter tell that the very reason they are psychers is what shields them the most from corruption.

What are the GKs then?
We have only vague fluff to go on and logical thinking.
The GKs came to be after the custodians took of their armours.
The fluff also tells us that the GK armour is heavily inspired and built on the design the custodians themselves used.

Who were the custodians then?
Fluff tells us this:
First we had proto marines, those were marines in various stages of experimentation that eventually lead to true marines. They were altered only in strenght and mind and by not as refined processes. Often these people were the worst kind of criminals.

After the first "perfect marines came to be there was soem time of developement and the crusades started and marine numbers were sorely needed. The second marines were "made" by a very time consuming process but this was ok as it took place during peace time to fed the legions with their manpower.

As the crusade rolled on manpower became a pressing matter and the process of making marines had to be remade so that a man could become a marine far quicker. This is perfectly demonstrated in the HH series.
The tech was pure and true and not debased like the 30k tech so fully grown men could be altered into marines but this tech was not as wide spread in all legions as some could only make "kids" into marines.
Some fluff also claims the previous "time consuming marines that could be made from grown up men were better then the later "faster" marines).

Remember that even later on in the 40k age some of this older tech still remains. The black templars can create marines from fully frown men and dont have to rely on "kids".

Now for the funny thing.
Before marines came to be, true marines that is the emperor created his body guard.
Fluff tells us these are far far superior to "normal" marines and the interessting thing is that the emperor "made" these custodians from fully grown warriors that had proven beond doubt their loyalty to him.

This process was either unique and hidden by the emperor so that only his body guard became super strong and not other marines OR the emperor used his own geneseed in the making of a custodian. Both theories are equally valid.

Now on to the origin of the GKs.
-GKs came to be after the heresy.
-GKs equipment was based on the custodian equipment.
-Custodians were not psychers (they needed sisters of silence to protect them from psychers, fluff about this is found in the awesome HH art book series)
-GKs are ALL psychers and this is what gives them the edge in incorruptability.

The emperor needed an anti deamon force that could stand on their own without the help of the sisters of silence (those "dissapeared" but my personal opinion is that they were dissbanded and moved to serve under the newly found inquisition under another name in the black ships).

Nothing of the GK geneseed is known but the close ties hint to a process closely related to the one that created the custodian guard.
What is clearly obvious (using logical thinking) is that the newly found grey knights were trained by none others then the custodian guard.
Reasons:
1 Only the custodian guard were 100% free of taint, corruption and ulterior motives.
2 The custodian guard were masters of their own wargear and the GKs equipment was based on custodian gear.
3 Only the custodian guard had unpararelled experiance in fighting daemons and thus no other unit would be better suited then the custodians in training the new GKs in the way of the daemon.
4 Both factions were situated within the same star system.


This tells me that the GKs are the cusins of the custodes themselves. See them as a custodian second founding albeit much weaker then their parents but with their own potent abilities that the custodians did not possess.

Lets not forget the argument that Grey Knights may just be an army of Space Marine Psykers with special training and better equipemnt, much like say a modern army's elite force eg British SAS,American Navy Seals and Russian Spetsnaz.

Actually, I prefer to forget that argument... not for any logical reason whatsoever; simply because, in the long run, it's less fun. Besides, isn't fun the entire reason we care so much about our army's fluff?

Hey dont get me wrong but I think that that theory can be fun and still makes the GK special but for other reasons, which can also be fun to build on, such as the fact non have ever turned their back on the light, they are all psykers they are special, their is loads.

Pyriel, you seem educated in the early 40k fluff.

Your statements seem logical and thorough.

And the idea of Grey knights beeing Sas....

HERESY!!!

Sorry i personally hate that idea, they are way cooler and more elite than that.

I think i will think of Grey knights as Second founding Custodians.
Becouse only custodians, primarchs and the emperor himself is mightier than a grey knight!

(I skip aliens and deamons in this ladder of might becouse they often do not posses the coolness to oppose the coolness of grey knights)

i think GW leaves blanks in chapter history to allow guys to make their own fluff. my other army is dark angels and there is always the question about who cypher is. and how many primarchs are missing? bodies never recovered. its just storylines that we can add to.

Pyriel, you seem educated in the early 40k fluff.

Your statements seem logical and thorough.

And the idea of Grey knights beeing Sas....

HERESY!!!

Sorry i personally hate that idea, they are way cooler and more elite than that.

It´s cool dude
We all have our preferences, beliefs and wish-lists. I just happen to base mine on logic though it doesnt necessarily have to mean it must be the truth.